How many dead Palestinians ....

So you think Hamas is completely within its rights to act the way it has and does Granjura?

But Aka how can they be 'equally to blame' if one side is the clear illegal occupier?

GTwice if it's simplistic to say both sides are equally to blame, then I hold my hands up. If it's simplistic to say Gazans are caught in the middle I also hold my hands up to that too.
If the reason I tried to look at both sides of the issue is that I felt it was getting rather one-sided on this thread, then I'll admit to that too.

One way to deal with feelings of helplessness & horror is to donate to a charity like Medical aid for Palestine Www.map-uk.org. Penstemmon may have others that can be recommended. Thank you for telling us your family story - it makes what people suffered more real. It must be very harrowing for your & your family to know what's happening now as it has been over th epast years too when it was rarely reported.

Israel has had since 1967 to do something positive, like giving back land. They haven't. Like someone else has suggested, I think that if that had been done it may have prevented many other conflicts in the region. I had hopes that things might change when Rabin was elected but then the right wing extremist shot him.

youtu.be/-Iyj6UPCChA

truly shocking

This conflict has been going on for more than 2000 years, different countries over the years have been involved, making treaties, bargaining and warring with each other. What really scares me is the fact the Israelis believe that God gave them that land and to what extent they will go to, to keep it

Eloethan- I must admit I had never heard of the Transfer Agreement, and found the interview with Edwin Black- at first, I just could not believe what I was hearing- even his parents, who escaped a concentration camp- disowned him at first after he had done all the research- as it was just too painful for them to even fathom. I hope others will do as you did and Google this- as it is just mind blowing.

Certainly a good reason to make history a compulsory subject to A'Level for those who go into post 16 Ed- to get more insight about the mistakes of the past, and of now.

One of the reasons I think it is helpful to have the discussions and debates on this thread is that so many of us do feel so helpless and know there isn't any easy solution - or indeed any solution at all probably and it helps to talk it over with others. I've also found the MN threads incredibly informative - now there you could use the term 'heated' debate. I don't think anyone has said that someone is not bright enough to understand what has been said. But enough of that - I think Mishaps final paragraph illustrates exactly why the historical dimension is so important to understanding do many present day conflicts. The sad thing is that we don't learn- what's that quote - something about those who do not learn from history being doomed to repeat it?

Eleothan I would regard some of the remarks as being unkind and they are not what I am used to in conversation with friends on however serious and difficult a topic.

And I do think that that sort of unpleasant feeling in human conversation is part of what makes these international/inter-religion conflicts happen. They are just macro manifestations of the smaller discourtesies that occur.

I have no problem with the firmly expressed views - that is what debate is about; but suggesting that someone is not bright enough to understand what you have posted seems unkind to me.

I have no religious affiliation, but, if asked what I believe in, I would say kindness above all else.

I do admit to being unable to contribute anything to this debate, as the whole issue of the conflict in the middle east is so complex and so resistant to solution. Sadly the intermittent fearsome spats, where innocent people are killed, seem to be set on their tracks and immovable. Does anyone have a solution? I fear not. We may get brief ceasefires and moments when people can draw breath; but the lives of those caught up in this dreadful situation will continue to be unbearable.

Part of the problem lies with decisions taken by Britain and others earlier last century - just as with India/Pakistan and the slaughter that followed there. This is why I am so averse to interfering in others' cultures - we never seem to learn this lesson - if we divide land up and tell people where they should be living and who with and how they should live, we are tampering in very dangerous territory. I have no idea how the pieces might now be picked up and reassembled to stop this tragic situation. It is beyond sad.

mishap I don't think the debate has been particularly "heated", given what is being discussed - it's hardly a light hearted subject. People have expressed strong and differing opinions, but I don't recall anyone (of whatever opinion) being unpleasant to another poster.

granjura Thanks for you post re the Transfer Agreement - I hadn't heard of it either. I did a search and watched an early video of an interview with Edwin Black. I wasn't quite sure what his opinion was as to the morality of powerful Zionists negotiating with Hitler so as to facilitate the transfer of certain Jewish people and their money to Palestine, as the first steps towards creating a Zionist state. I got the impression (maybe wrongly) that he thought that it was a necessary evil. But by negotiating with Hitler, rather than supporting the proposed boycott of German goods, the Zionists colluded with - and made life easier for - Hitler. Presumably the outlook for those who could not afford to uproot and travel to Palestine was not a consideration.

Joan I couldn't read the link you provided.

Interesting article however

You see what I mean Lilygran - did you have to make that comment about closed minds - regardless of whom you were aiming it at?

It's complicated.......this link is very long but the article isn't and is worth reading. Too many people on this thread with closed minds (not you, Penstemmon) theconversation.com/israels-message-to-palestinians-and-the-world-the-rockets-stop-or-we-wont-29720?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+28+July+2014+-+1813&utm_content=Latest+from+The+Conversation+for+28+July+2014+-+1813+CID_56cfbb8692ae2dd2ccb3ef7f741b661d&utm_source=campaign_monitor_uk&utm_term=Israels%20message%20to%20Palestinians%20and%20the%20world%20the%20rockets%20stop%20%20or%20we%20wont

Aka - what I was referring to as a bit simplistic was your comment

it's 'historical' we all know that, but short of declaring the state of Israel nul and void, or totally wiping it out, then that is a situation that we have to live with. I think Israel would be prepared to settle for a peaceful solution, I doubt Hamas want peace

I meant that it was simplistic to say that we have to live with the situation as it is or wipe out Israel. I then suggested some of the possibilities that were neither accepting things as they are now or wiping out Israel. I am genuinely interested to know what your post meant - I can't really believe that you think Israel should be allowed to keep all it has illegally grabbed and the Palestinisns should just suck it up?

I think this subject is far too important to be making personal comments and it wasn't my intention - I thought I'd commented on the content of your post and I apologise if you didn't like what I said about bring simplistic - have I explained it any better now?. I won't respond to Mishap but I agree with granjura

My Grandmother was born in Nazareth. Her family goes back 100s years in the area. Her father was a doctor. She married an English soldier who was in Palestine at the end on WW1 and they set up home in Palestine. My father was born in 1921 and he , his sisters and brother grew up there. The family moved to Mt Carmel, Haifa. My dad went to school in Jerusalem and began to train as a lawyer. In 1947 all British were ordered to leave, 48 hour notice because of the terrorist actions of jews against the British. May grandmother had to leave her home and family. She & her family, over time, lost land, farms, homes, businesses to the formation of Israel. I948 does not feel that long ago nonnie when that has happened. Speak to my 89yr old aunt..it is fresh for her.
Before the advent of the policies of Zionism Jews, Christians and Muslims had co-existed in Palestine in relative harmony . My father had friends of all three religions and continued to do so all through his life. But he hated the Zionist government and policies.

There is an argument that says without Zionism there may not have been the rise of Islamism. Anyextreme right wing policies/religious groups are dangerous and I include the current Israeli government in that.

Has it got heated, really- I don't feel it has. It is a hugely complex problem, going back to huge injustice done over half a Century ago- and it is no wonder we do not necessarily agree on the best way to 'solve this'.
It is so tragic, and as said,, so complex- and our own friends and experiences will influence our opinions and attitude. It would be difficult to state that the Palestinians have been the victims from the start, through no fault of their own- and that 'simplistic' solutions will not work. This is not being rude- but the plain truth.

Heavens! - if a few grandmothers on a forum cannot discuss a subject without getting heated, what chance is there for the middle east!!

Grannytwice it's so easy to trot out a phrase like 'that's a bit simplistic', presumably intended as an insult. But as you've obviously not understood my post, I'll forgive you xx

have a look at the link Granjura it is very moving.

We are more likely to say QED: Quod erat demonstrandum, granjura.

Sorry Nonnie- ce qu'il fallait démontrer- an abbreviation often used in English too- roughly 'what had to be demonstrated' or in short 'exactly what you said'.

I know it leads to an infernal vicious circle- but it was Palestianian land that was taken away from them to give to the Jews for Israel- and no wonder they were no happy about it. And it is the Israelis who are now occupying what little land they were left with- and who destroyed the rich agricultural lands and cities and apply a blockade to bomb and starve them out of what little land they've got left.

As Riverwalk said- who would not fight back? As much as I hate war, I think I would fight to protect my loved ones and the land that sustain them.

What is CQFD please?

'We had quite a discussion about this yesterday and one person had been born Jewish so as you can imagine we heard a defence which included "What would you do if you were constantly bombarded by another country" her answer was 'fight back' '

CQFD Nonnie- this is exactly what the Palestinians are doing. Not only was 55% of their land initially taken away to give to another people- against their will- but now they are suffering the little land they have left occupied, their rich and ancient agricultural lands have been destroyed, their homes, everything, and Israel are imposing a stringent blockade. There is a clear aggressor here- so it is not possible NOT to take sides.

I wonder if the Nazis called the French Resistance- who dug tunnels, and blew up Nazi strongholds with bombs, and killed Nazis- terrorists?

Was Mandela a terrorist or a Hero? Such a fine line- when you have no other choice, then you have to fight a dirty and terrible war. Very few now would say the Resistants or Mandela had a choice.

Nobody has commented on my post re the Transfer Agreement? Has anyone else heard of the Zionist pact with Htiler from 1933 onwards- to allow rich Jews a passage to Palestine?

I agree with you Aka. I see no point in taking sides, there are issues on both sides. 1948 was a long time ago and we should deal with now. Look how many countries have changed since then and if we want to go back just how far do we go?

I don't think anyone has mentioned that Israel has a shield which protects from the assault from Hamas which is why their death rate is lower.

We had quite a discussion about this yesterday and one person had been born Jewish so as you can imagine we heard a defence which included "What would you do if you were constantly bombarded by another country" her answer was 'fight back'

Please open this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD79V9qAPSw&list=UUC_HCbHDzjCOMqvQ_d9xVpA

So sad.