Why does God ......

Hi, Alie Greenblob

Yes, I do (want free will)- and I dream of people doing the right thing because it makes sense, and because this is what evolved humans do, and what is best for all (and for us too). It may sound really arrogant to you, but humans are able to make the right choices, for the right reasons and without God, or some God or super power telling them what to do.

A few years ago, I met a young Polish/Lithuanian couple in the countryside, as I was walking. We began to chat- and it was clear they were knew to the area and were keen to meet people. As we walked back to town together, and we arrived at our house, I invited for coffee. We invited them for lunch a week later, to make them feel welcome. We then discovered he was a preacher for an Evangelical Church. We helped them in lots of ways, giveing them furniture and all sorts of bits and pieces, first for themselves, then for their community. His wife one day said she was so surprised, because I was so helpful to them and open- and yet I was not a Christian. How do you know what do do, she asked? Just makes sense, was my answer. She was absolutely taken aback. Met this kind of reaction again and again. Weird, as far as I am concerned.

It certainly sounds weird to me, as well! I can hardly believe that some Christians think like that - they must have a very narrow view of the world.

I feel the same granjura, 'do as you would be done unto'.
I'm not at all convinced that God has anything to do with it, more of an intuitive action, as you say it makes sense.
DH doesn't understand me behaving like this, he's far less 'giving'. Perhaps upbringing has something to do with it, my mum was incredibly generous to others, but neither of my sisters behaves this way and MiL wouldn't do anything for anyone unless she got something in return (and she was a three times a week church-goer!)

Becoming a christian is partly about obeying God, which involves giving up self will.

I agree that after that, some christians behave less charitibly than some non believers.

Yes, granjura the conviction that only one section of society knows how to be "good" or "nice" and if you are not Christian then you must have no charity and no conscience is a very patronising one.

Very often in sermons and religious literature there is reference to the congregation or readers as "children" and to God as "father". That is a very nice and comfortable concept for believers, of human beings as immature and in need of a rulebook and a stern but loving father to keep them on the straight and narrow path to his approval. No need to think, or to balance what will be the best action, just ask father, he has it all worked out.

But we bring up our earthly children to be independent of us, to use their experience and initiative and common sense to make their own decisions. When they are grown-up, they love their brothers and sisters because of the personal links they have with them, not because father says they must. They act for the benefit of the whole community, not just for their own selfishness, because they are a oart of that community. They look after the weak and the young and old because they need help, not because that is what father says they must do.

Perhaps when the human race was young, and had not long graduated from being half ape, they needed a strong intelligent leader who would use his powers to keep the troupe in order - and if he was brighter than they were, perhaps he could formulate a code of law and present it to them as what an even stronger leader than him had laid down.

But we have grown in sophistication and we are able to discuss ethics man-to-man (and woman-to-woman) without having the concepts handed to us ready-made, with heaven as a bribe if we are good, and the eternal fires of hell as a deterrent to being bad.

They or perhaps I should say we are supposed to be trying to do Gods will. We may not always succeed, or succeed well, but we are supposed to be trying.

For what it is worth, I dont think I personally know of anyone who thinks like Elegran's first paragraph, christian or otherwise.

Send them to me, and I will put them straight!

Do we spend all our adult life trying to do the will of our biological father? We don't. We make our own decisions, and any biological father who wanted to direct all the actions of his children for all their lives would be labelled a control freak.

Such men exist, of course, and some are famous/infamous. The father of Elizabeth Barrett Browning, for example.

God is my Heavenly Father. He does bear a whole lot of resemblance to my earthly one.

oops! I meant to put there He does NOT bear...

One real revelations for me, when I did my teacher training Degree as a mature student- was the study of the theory of the evolution of morality. In particular the work of Kohlberg and others, and the different stages of moral evolution. Well worth a read, if you are interested. Doing anything 'right' because on is instructed to do so, is a middle level, doing the 'right' thing because you want the same to be done to you, is a little 'above'- true free will is, of course, at a much 'higher' level.

Here is a very simple résumé of the stages, but worth having a look in more detail:

ooops won't let me post the link- will try later, sorry.

I would put them the other way round, if I am understanding your post correctly [which I may well not be].
It is far harder to do things you dont particularly want to do, rather than things you do.

I will wait for the link thanks, as I may be misunderstanding.

"doing the 'right' thing because you want the same to be done to you, is a little 'above'"

Surely that should come right at the bottom?

The basic question asked by the OP only arises because most religions regard their deity as being all-powerful, which causes people to ask that sort of question. Basically if an all-powerful deity is able to relieve suffering why does it not do so? It is not a question that I feel moved to ask as for me it is simply part of the reason that I cannot give credence to the existence of a deity.

I would consider myself to be a Christian and I try to be kind to others. I know many people who have no faith whatsoever who are much kinder and nicer to others than me just because that's the way they are.

I certainly don't think I am better than others because of my faith, far from it in fact. The fact that bad things happen to good people is a hard thing to come to terms with in terms of religion but I don't believe this is God's punishment.

I don't personally know any other Christians who would say people deserve what happens to them (although I am sure there are many Christians out there who do think like this).

I suppose like in all aspects of life, atheists, Christains, Muslims whatever, there are basically good people and bad people, and people who just do the best they can to live a good life and not cause or think of harm to others.

I guess the Christian theory is that God wants people to choose to do the right thing following the model of JC. However it does seem strange, to me, that a 'God of Love' /'Loving Father' does not use the omnipotent powers to protect innocents.
There are many good people, with faith and with none, who do work to protect vulnerable youngsters who have been, or are in danger of being, taken into prostitution.
It is the eternal battle of good vs evil. Religious people attribute the good in the world to God and the evil to the Devil and their religious leaders use heaven and hell at the carrot and whip to keep order.

I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions and try hard to do no harm to others and believe when I die that's my turn done!

I asked earlier if people wanted free will.
No one has said that they dont.

If God repeatedly relieved suffering, that is repeatedly interfering with the free with that no one has said they dont want.

Whose 'free will' is it to cause drought, flood or earthquake soontobe? As far as I know that is not within human capacity!

Aren't those things down to natural causes?

No, that is not within human capacity.