4 yr olds unkind behaviour

You are giving your daughter great advice - I hope it all gradually sorts out.

This has been most instructive. and helpful. I did avoid two bits of fairly vital info. He is a twin. He is DDs stepson. So there will be other stuff going on. I don't think for one minute the accident was an intentional event. It was the boy's reaction that shook DD. She is doing a brilliant job with them but anxious to do the right thing at all times. A perfectionist. I have told her child rearing is not an exact science! Instinct goes a long way.

Lovely - there must be exceptions.

My kindly 11-year-old GS is a shining exception to that rule, TriciaF. Last week when I was staying there, I'd just trudged up hill to their house and GS took one look at me and said, 'You look a bit puffed, Granny, would you like me to make you a cup of tea?' I was so grateful! I don't have favourites among my GC, but he came close at that moment.

I've just remembered a belief in orthodox Judaism - up to the age of 13 a boy only has the urge to be naughty (yetzer hara). At 13 he suddenly acquires the urge to be good (yetzer hatov.)
Girls a bit earlier, at 12.
I was once working I to 1 with a very naughty Jewish boy, I corrected him for being cheeky and he replied " I can't help it - I haven't got my yetzer hatov yet."
So that puts the age for "empathy" a lot higher, if you accept it.

Neither my daughter nor I had remembered that she was once, at about 3, really annoying a very quiet, well-mannered young man who visited. Mentioning the incident he recalled her pulling hairs from his legs then biting him. Having had enough he delicately took hold of her little arm - and bit it. Not hard, no mark, no crying but a very surprised and instantly well behaved child.

I wouldn't recommend what he did but understand it and have to admit that it worked. Shock therapy!
When I was 17 my boyfriend's younger brother was sittingnext to me on the sofa at (literally) a vicarage tea party with their grandparents. He started very unobtrusively twisting and pinching the back of my hand. Paralysed with embarrassment I tried to ignore him, saying and doing absolutely nothing. What a pathetic wimp I was! When I later told my boyfriend he was amazed I hadn't just told the seven year old to stop it! The only possibles explanation, I feel, is that I was an only child and the oldest of 8 cousins!

The biter bit.....

I've never been into eating horse

I expect little girls taste better!

Synonymous - I bet it was - they usually were - especially in winter!!! It worked tho!

A hairy, sweaty pony?!

vampirequeen - re the biting - my sister did that to a biting pony - sunk her teeth into its neck! It never bit again!!

My understanding is if a girl doesn't have empathy by the time they are seven it is a problem. Boys have a little longer, though children can be helped and shown how to empathise.

My eldest GD was not quite two when she first met my cousin's severely disabled son. Later that day he was resting in another room and I found GD gently tickling his feet. As GD got older I noticed she was drawn to children who had disabilities though she wasn't always great with other children. Now she is a ten year old who has a lot of empathy and is kind to others. Eldest GS who is a year younger was three when I read him a story about Miffy who lost her teddy. I glanced at him and he had tears running down his cheeks. Youngest GD, nearly four, when I tell her she was kind always adds, "sometimes I'm not."

My other GC have all shown empathy except for one, my youngest GS 7 who I think needs help and encouragement to understand how others feel. On Friday he deliberately threw his cousin's clay into the sandpit so it was ruined. He now has to buy her a new packet out of his money to replace it. He was most unhappy and still can't understand why he should. He has to know there are consequences on how he treats others. I was shocked when he told me at his previous school they were punished if they gave food to a hungry classmate. There was a no nut rule so I was surprised about being punished for being thoughtful.

I always point out to youngest GS 7 how sad situations can be for other people and I think he is starting to "get it." I have always thought lack of empathy is a huge problem and those who don't have it don't lead very happy lives.

Vampirequeen

I remember my own mother finally in desperation giving my sister a small bite to stop her biting the rest of us and it was the only thing that worked. My sister knew it was wrong and only ever did it when she thought no adult was present until the day she was caught. It never happened again!

Actually she was a very good headteacher. I think she probably said it privately to me as chair of governors out of frustration that she and the school had been unable to help the child. She kept trying and did not write the child off. The child's siblings were not a problem.

There is no such thing as a 'bad 'un'
I do remember the debate being discussed where I was working many years ago (before I had any children!) between nature and nurture.
There is research and debate going on today into whether or not there is a genetic component in criminal behavior.

Sometimes a child has to feel the effects of what they do. I'm sure Dara didn't push her DGD forcefully. Just enough to show it was unpleasant and then they could talk about.

DD1 appeared to be happy when DD2 arrived but the jealously showed itself in sly bites. I tried everything to stop her biting her little sister but nothing worked. Finally I gave her arm a little nip with my teeth then we talked about how much it had hurt her and how much her bites must be hurting the baby. She never bit again. Maybe she understand ...maybe she just didn't fancy being bitten again (not that I would have...it was a one off desperation action). She's 30 now and still remembers.

Not sure about that Dara. Removing likely missiles is obviously a good idea but I wouldn't push a child, however gently. Wouldn't that just be teaching bad behaviour, I.e. grown ups do it = ok to do it. You wouldn't bite, or pull a child's hair ?

My DGD started throwing stuff at me. She pushes other children. Took away likely missiles and pushed her firmly so she know what it is like.

thatbags the headteacher might be a victim of her own opinions-self fulfilling prophecies and all that. If you expect bad behaviour that tends to be what you get.

I think maybe he knew what he had done but blocked it out as if he didn't admit it then it didn't happen. All children learn and develop at a different rate. I would find books where empathy is in the story and read them to him and ask what he would do in a similar situation. My gd who's 4 would not tell her mum what happened when 2 year old sister was crying and the only reason was that she might get into trouble. She hadn't done anything but in her mind she would get blamed for her sister crying. I'm sure your GS will be fine.

I disagree totally with that headteacher, thatbags. There is no such thing as a 'bad 'un'. There are children with different needs who through life experiences have developed inappropriate behaviours to deal with the issues they face. I worked with such children. When you get through the walls they have built to protect themselves they are vulnerable, damaged little souls not the often arrogant, couldn't care less person they project to the world.

This is not to say the OP child is damaged in any way. He sounds like a normal egocentric four year old.

I think getting little children to say sorry is not productive and it is just a word not backed up with understanding. That does not mean children are not taught about consequences of their actions. In the case of the OPs grandson I would have removed him from the bike, taken him to see what his careless driving had done and then said he would not be able to use the bike for a given time. I would also ask him to do something to make the hurt child feel better.

By 5-6 yrs I would expect most children to appreciate that they had hurt somebody. Some younger children will appreciate that too but all kids develop at a different pace.

Granarchist - your point about children being trained in behaviour around horses fits very well in this discussion. My 18 month old grandson once got hold of our dogs ears, one in each hand and pulled his hands apart, still holding the dogs ears. She was a very gentle rescue border collie cross -we were all in the kitchen, my daughter at one end, me at the other (not a big room), both of us started walking towards the little boy, first there prized his hands away whilst saying let go of the dog. Dog greatly relieved, given lots of praise and child had an age appropriate explanation, no shouting at anyone. Child seemed to fully get that he wasn't to do that to the dog, the dog may bite - he never did anything remotely provocative or unkind ever again. He is 21 now and still a gentle, kind individual.