Triple lock

daphne I agree that JSA is far too low but why is that the fault of pensioners, many of whom are not that comfortable either? Why, for instance, did the government prioritise raising the already generous threshold for inheritance tax whilst making swingeing cuts that affected the poorest?

The majority of people on JSA will have the opportunity to get back to work, some within only a few weeks of becoming unemployed. Many pensioners are unable to obtain or are not fit enough to take on further employment to boost their income and so have to live out the rest of their days on what might be a fairly pitiful amount.

I realise that wages have stagnated for some time but, again, that is not the fault of pensioners.

What I do find annoying is pensioners who play the same game - blaming young people for being irresponsible and spendthrift and not recognising that they are in a very different situation now than young people were in during the 60s and 70s.

grannyactivist You're not a pensioner. That's why you pay. If you'd been a little older, you could have had a bus pass by now. It's yet another benefit Waspi women (and men) have lost.

I was born in April 1955 and won't get a buss pass until April 2021.

grannyactivist You're not a pensioner. That's why you pay. If you'd been a little older, you could have had a bus pass by now. It's yet another benefit Waspi women (and men) have lost.

They might be subject to taxation, but not NICs, which raises almost as much for the Treasury as income tax. Governments keep headline income taxes low and raise NICs at the same time, but they rarely make the headines. The poorest pay more in NICs than they do in tax.

Sorry, It's about time pensioners as group stopped being sheltered from austerity.

"In England you can get a bus pass for free travel when you reach the female State Pension age, whether you're a man or a woman. If you live in London, you can travel free on buses, tubes and other transport when you're 60, but only within London. In Wales you can get a bus pass when you reach 60."
The above is pasted directly from the government website. I was born towards the end of 1953 so I won't get my bus pass until I reach pensionable age in November of this year - if they still exist after this election. There are no subsidies for transport in my area and a single fare to the nearest big shopping centre costs £6.50; the single fare to the G.P. surgery, just over a mile away, costs £2.30. For many of the local elderly population the free bus pass is not a luxury, but a necessity.

I know that Eloethan. I don't own my own home and I still think the triple lock is wrong.

I'm still one of the "young ones". If I were claiming JSA, I'd be expected to live on less than half what the poorest single pensioners receive. That's even less than miserable.

Then, if I were to find a job, I'd have to pay tax to support the triple lock for a pension I'd have to pay more for and receive less.

Pensioners vote Tory. Damien Green's not stupid.

I know that Eloethan. I don't own my own home and I still think the triple lock is wrong.

I'm still one of the "young ones". If I were claiming JSA, I'd be expected to live on less than half what the poorest single pensioners receive. That's even less than miserable.

Then, if I were to find a job, I'd have to pay tax to support the triple lock for a pension I'd have to pay more for and receive less.

Pensioners vote Tory. Damien Green's not stupid.

Someone said exactly that on QT just now, Eloethan.
I was surprised to hear Damien Green sticking up for pensioners.

daphne You may well be right about there not being direct blame but I have certainly heard some young people on TV and radio saying it's unfair that pensioners are getting preferential treatment - and it's a view that has gained prominence over the last couple of years.

It certainly appears that pensioners tend to vote in their own interests, but is that any different from any other group? Whilst it is true that fewer young people vote than older people, they do demonstrate and those demonstrations often relate to matters that relate to their own situation - tuition fees, etc.

The state pension does not, in my view, provide enough for a reasonably comfortable life. For those who have no, or only a small, occupational pension and who do not own their homes as a source of security for a loan, life on a state pension must be fairly cheerless.

I realise that there are older people who are very comfortably off but, in that case, they are subject to taxation like anyone else aren't they?

Pensions are a lottery anyway. My husband paid in all his working life until he was made disabled and then was given NI allowances for not being able to work.
He died six months after reaching state pension age.
I have been given extra pension because he died, but have £45 a week deducted because of his serps. I end up no better off, as the DWP has not been able to track down where the serps was paid!
A lottery in which the DWP wins by changing the rules for all of us.

I know I'm acting against my own self-interest, but still think that the triple (and even double) lock pension is grossly unfair.

Our state pensions aren't low in the context of how much we've paid in. People in most developed countries have paid in far more and don't have separate occupational pensions.

Eloethan I don't think they directly blame pensioners. I've had many conversations with my own two children about it. What they resent is that pensioners vote in their own interests against the interests of others - and the baby boom bulge has a greater effect on voting totals than that of any other cohort. They're the ones paying for current pensioners, in addition to contributing to their own pensions.

It's now been shown that the percentage of 18-24 year olds who voted in the referendum wasn't as low as previously thought. The vast majority of them voted Remain, but there are fewer of them. It's the same with elections, which is why so many of them have just given up.

Oh it's all got very confusing

That is interesting Maggie we paid what then was the full NI contributions and were only opted out of the SERPS part. Of course the NI contributions only gave the basic pension - which is what I have but I am lucky enough to have the occupational one too - not a full one but enough to make a difference to our lives.

I think the rules only changed in April 2016, ie no one has been able to opt out since then, Welshwife. I always thought I'd paid full NI contributions, but it turns out that I paid less than the full 12% when I was opted out. I think we paid 11.5%, but may be wrong. Whatever the difference, I certainly wasn't aware that opting out would affect my state pension - we were actively encouraged to opt out in the 80s. It was the way to go, apparently.

Yes eleothan that makes absolute sense.

I think May is likely to get rid of the triple lock. It may be, though, that she is not saying anything at the moment for fear of losing out on young people's votes - they have been convinced that all pensioners are living in the lap of luxury. Conversely, Labour may gain a few current pensioners' votes but lose younger people's votes.

I can understand young people feeling aggrieved - because they certainly are disadvantaged in the housing and employment market as compared to previous generations. However, I think they are misguided in blaming pensioners.

Our state pension is still very low compared to average wages and to what people in other developed countries receive. It is only people who have very good occupational pensions who are braving the storm. Sadly, occupational pensions are unlikely in the future to be as generous as they are now because final salary schemes are all being closed. So in a few years' time, if the triple lock has been abandoned, many new pensioners will definitely be feeling the pinch as state pensions will be well on the way to previous poverty levels.

The rules had a change then for a while as I always paid full NIC plus occupational pension contributions. The only part I did not pay was SERPS as you could not pay that and pay into an occupational pension. All teachers were automatically 'opted out'. It was a lot of deductions at source with tax as well - and the personal allowance was less.

Not everybody, not those that get travel sick on buses, especially local and urban stop/start/routes or routes round minor country roads. I do, so no bus pass, but I love my Senior Rail Card.

Absolutely everyone seems to love their bus pass. One of Labours inspired ideas

Yep, I'll be getting my state pension at 66. 41 years contribution record, but opted out for years, so my forecast under the new scheme is just over £100 a week. The fact that I paid slightly less onto the NI pot whilst opted out counts against me, but the SERPS I paid in for the other years does not count towards it. One of my pension pots was embezzled by its trustees back in the 80s, so all I got for those four years of contributions was a very polite letter saying sorry, there's no money left!

Transitional state pension arrangements are in place for a few years though, so I'll get what I would have got under the old system, which is a higher amount.

I'd love a free bus pass. DH got his at 60, as does everyone across the UK still apart from some unlucky areas of England, mine being one.

Correction 46 years not 44 years.

It's all so confusing. Aarrgghh!

The Institute of Fiscal Studies and the Work and Pensions Select Committee think that neither the triple lock nor a double lock is sustainable in the long term. They are advocating a system based on the increase in average earnings with temporary adjustments when CPI is running ahead of average earnings.

www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9165

SERPS was abolished when the new single pension was introduced, which means lower earners benefited while anybody who had paid in more receive less.

I paid into three different occupational pensions during my working life and do not receive full state pension for those years. The NICs for those years were instead paid to my occupational pension schemes, which I topped up.

I'm not exactly sure how much has been deducted, but is seems to be about £32pw. I think only 27 of the 44 years count towards my state pension.

In a way I can see that's fair. Current employees in occupational pension schemes pay full NICs PLUS their occupational pension contributions (ie about 24% of earnings), which is one of the reasons younger people feel so resentful of older people on very generous pensions. I'm not going to go into that here, but they're paying 24% pension contributions, 20% income tax and, in many cases, 9% on student loans plus facing a much higher SPA and astronomical housing costs. I really think it's totally unfair that pensioners have been protected from "austerity".

However, I object to the short notice that we've been given. I already live very frugally and can't afford to do anything about it now, but I could have done if I'd known 20 or 30 years ago.

The side effect of all the chopping and changing means that younger people don't have confidence in the pension system,because they're not guaranteed the payments they've been promised.

Yes, other European countries have paid far more into their pensions. For all the moaning, many current pensioners really have not paid for their pensions. That's not their fault, because they didn't know, but governments have stepped back from reforming the system for years to avoid upsetting their "grey voters".

Add to all that the crisis in the NHS and social care and the country is in crisis and it will remain so, until the baby boomer generation works its way through the system. Quite simply, there aren't enough working age people to sustain an older, increasingly frail population.