STOP CLAPPING!

Petra, using "tw*t" is the same as using "c**t" - both mean the same anatomically and both also mean obnoxious but are still vulgar. People often get "tw*t" mixed up with "twit" which is what I think you actually meant.

LJP1 You said yesterday:
"Remember the education policy which banned teaching tables"
I don't remember that. I was a teacher from 1972 onwards before I finished a Psychology degree in 1994 and went into other areas of Psychology. I taught the children to learn tables by heart. I also did a lot of "tables building" to show them the patterns and help them discover the amazing things about numbers.

I did go to a school as part of the local Inspectorate, where there was a wishy washy teacher in the Reception Class who just let the children run riot and make a lot of noise. When they went up to the next class it was very hard to settle them down at first.
Sorry - this is off-message concerning clapping.

I don’t understand your comment about notanan’s banner, Tillybelle. Or your post at 0946h.

Could you explain what you mean, please?

I want to attend just so I can make a point of applauding loudly at the end, and shouting 'encore', hooting a horn and waving streamers! Because IF a top uni honestly has vast numbers of autistic students, those individuals (much as I sympathise with them) aren't going to get this kind of kid glove treatment in the big wide world of Work (presumably what we're investing in their future for??) Do you think participants in office seminars, bonding weekends, staff parties etc are co-erced into quiet, sweet behaviour? The world of work is a cut-throat world where anyone whose face doesnt fit- even if they're 'special' - will soon be levered out. If your issues mean certain activities are difficult for you, then you have to avoid them. It's NOT for everyone else to embrace your problems.

Maggiemaybe Humble apologies! I was joking along with notanan’s comment Wed 03-Oct-18 17:52:00, viz;

"This is going to cumulate in civil unrest!

It is populism.
It is dangerous"

My 09.46 merely continued her joke about civil unrest. I had said it would all probably fade away, so added “maybe not” concerning my joke about her - and maybe more of us - going on a march! It was all light-hearted and continuing the joke she made about Civil unrest. I think she was making a very good point by turning it into a joke, gently introducing the idea that it really was not important enough for us to fall out over or get upset about. I’m sure she will say what she meant if I’m wrong. Her comments have been very good spice to the conversation, in my humble opinion. After all, that’s what GNet does; we have a good discussion and thrash out the issues, have some jokes and fun, but never lose respect for each other and always appreciate the viewpoint of others. It’s part of what brings me here. Learning about the experiences of others is one of the most fascinating and humbling experiences. The other is the superb, wonderful support I have received through difficult times.
I hope that's explained it and apologies again for sounding mysterious, it was not intentional.
Concerning the issue, I still support the Students. I think it is brave of them, they must have known it might be unpopular. I think many people have not understood it concerns debates, discussions and meetings not theatre shows, and it is so that speakers are not interrupted. I liked what Sara Khan said about encouraging an environment of respect and comparing it with Parliament, towards which she was respectful but said how interruptions and calling out etc. prevented people from hearing the person speaking.

Well put Tilleybelle.... especially reiterating Sara Khan's comment about Parliament

Ah! But starbox the cruel and NOISY, rough, uncaring "world of work" of which you speak and indeed, from which many of us here have retired or will soon, is being taken over by newcomers!
The "world of work" is changing! Why? Because Students from top Universities such as Manchester, are graduating and entering "the world of work" and taking with them their beliefs and ethics and work-practices!

The young are taking over, and they are bred from people like these Students!

Also, it is called progress. Things improve. People learn to treat each other more decently, with more respect, more thought and understanding.

The "dog eats dog" world on "The Apprentice" is fake. It's set up for entertainment. Some places do it, some types of Banks and Law firms and Businesses, but by no means everywhere.

Also, people with specific Disabilities are entitled to work in an environment suitable for their needs so long as the job can be done properly. The Law states that. There are thousands, (possibly millions?) of disabled workers with modified work stations for their needs. That is how a normal work-place should be. It should not be abnormal to have a disabled person to cater for, it is normal in society that everyone is different and some people have special needs, so we should not bat an eyelid at various adaptations needed here and there, it's part of life. So, for example ASD, mentioned so frequently here, is part of life just as many hearing disorders not many people have heard of and not many people understand, do exist. Those with them have the right to go to a meeting and hear the speakers and not be baffled by all the noises of whooping, clapping supporters interrupting the speaker. It's simple.

What a good thing the younger generation have the decency and kindness to recognise this.

Greatview Thank you?

SueDoku Thank you! Sorry it's a bit belated. ? (I love your name!)

TILLEYBELLE your comment "Things improve. People learn to treat each other more decently, with more respect, more thought and understanding". Rings such a clear and righteous bell with me.

One has to believe in young people making ethical choices, there are so many lovely lads and lasses out there who simply reject the philosophy of non inclusion and smug superiority.

Jazz hands at MU will morph or be tempered into something else. It's the initial sentiment that deserves an applause, jazz hand or otherwise

CarlyD7
I must say sorry - I have only just read the page with your message - I can't explain why I missed it!

I am so sorry to hear of your condition and the effect it has on your life. I have severe migraines so you have my heartfelt empathy. I was deeply moved by your saying:
"Healthy people can adapt; disabled/ill people cannot" I will look at that YouTube as I have been diagnosed with M.E. but it was years ago.
Sadly, having been on this debate a while now, I am so disillusioned by a big group of GNet responders. It is so painful to be faced with the horrible truth that so many people just do not want to know about the suffering of others. It makes it worse when they use members of their own family, who are clearly robust and do not have this condition, as "proof" that no disability measures are required. They have no idea what we are talking about here, it is obvious. Repeatedly, people get the place and circumstances for which the measures have been adopted wrong and extrapolate it to the Theatre, and repeatedly use completely wrong examples of "sufferers" to "prove" that such measures are not needed.

I do feel very upset for you and for all people who have such invisible and terribly tormenting conditions. I admire you very much for bravely keeping going and trying to engage in as many activities as you can, while adapting how you go about them to minimise the effect the condition has on you. I wish you much good luck and happiness. ?

I did say earlier, I did research into Tinnitus and Autism and this brought me into contact with many people with these kind of terrible hearing problems. Such problems are not necessarily due to Autism. They can happen for a lot of reasons. I treated somebody who had terrible hearing distortion which had strangely begun after a heart operation. Many people I met filled me with admiration and humility by the way they kept going, suffering what is used as a torture in wicked régimes, loud and very unpleasant unbearable noises, sudden ones at that, yet nobody else knowing they were going through this.

I know people here do not know about these hearing conditions or understand them. If they did they would surely not be so cocky about deriding people. But why can they not accept that they exist? These conditions are like torture. Why do they scorn people who are trying to enable those disabled by this kind of problem to participate as fully as possible in the life of, in this situation, the Students' Union?

As for saying they should not be allowed in a hall or auditorium!! I think that comment really does say a lot about the writer!! Would she/he say people from a certain race should not be allowed in a certain public room? Or maybe people who are in a wheelchair should not be allowed in a Concert Hall?
You disgust me!

I am so depressed today, because so many GNet people here are so cruel and so sneering about people with a very bad disability. If they have never heard of it why can't they accept that, instead of making assumptions? Yet one after another they have written disparaging remarks and 'clever' put-downs on sufferers and those who recognise their condition- people whose lives are bad enough as it is and for whom entering University is laudable. To pick on these brave young people, for both the helping group and the disabled group are very brave, these older people have demonstrated they are callous, ignorant bullies, no more, no less. Bullies in the latter years of their lives! They should know so much better!!

As for the sneering remarks of Dogsjj about the "quiet hour for shy people" the Students gave at the beginning of the Welcome Fair of Clubs and Societies in Freshers' Week at Falmouth University, has she no idea how big University looks when you first go there and don't know your way around, how you don't know anyone and it's your first time away from home? It is daunting for new Students! How can people be so cruel? Our generation at that! I am appalled.

I am so glad the young people are not this nasty. At least when our nasty generation have died off, the young ones will create a kinder world. Thank God!

Tillybelle I wasnt joking.
Populism has taken over the NUS and campuses up and down the country
It actually IS scary!

notanan2 Oh crumbs! I was seriously worried you were serious!! What does it actually mean?
I mean, to me on this subject, having worked in my latter profession with people with disabilities, I was moved that the young were aware of this health problem. It is real, it's not the one people here are referring to that their children on the Autistic spectrum haven are able to tolerate with help, although some people with AS have it.
I'm not too sure I know what is included under "populism" apart from the obvious connotation with popular!
It'd be great to be educated! Thanks.

I have educated myself as to the definition of populism, right down to its pejorative application, which I understand is your view of it notanan2 . I still don’t know why you are making this judgement about people being aware of a disability. It’s only for Student Union meetings, Debates etc so that the Speakers may be heard without people shouting out and the BSL clapping is just a courtesy to sufferers of this condition.
I don’t see the problem.
But then, most stuck in the mud people don’t like doing anything a different way to that which they have always done. My Lidl has been completely refurbished with lovely new upright fridges and lots more lines. When I told the Assistant how lovely it was she was so surprised and said I was the first person to say I liked it because everyone else was complaining saying they didn’t like it being changed.

After reading all the responses here, I feel truly sorry for all the people for whom 'Clapping' is painful or traumatic in some way. But they will just have to find coping mechanisms.

Clapping is a universal response to pleasure. All nations Clap! (And I bet that if you were to find a native tribe somewhere, with no connection to the modern world, they would Clap when something pleased them.)

It would be like trying to ban smiling, or laughing, or frowning, or crying, or screaming. These are natural, human responses to the situations around us.

So sorry, Manchester Students' Union. You are not doing your fellow students any favours by excluding them from the real world.

Gosh! What a lot of smugness and unkindness in so many of the posts!
We were not at the decision to use jazz hands as opposed to traditional clapping. The arguments to do so must have been persuasive.
I am v aware of the fine balance between supporting a person with a disability / health need to be able to live well in the ' able' world and making so many changes that life is very different for the majority of ' able' people. What I find distasteful is the unpleasant and reactionary way a few posts are so dismissive of people who have diabilities or health needs.

I had missed the original news item so looked it up and found this. I wonder which media outlets misrepresented the information!
inews.co.uk/news/clapping-ban-manchester-university-students-union-jazz-hands/

I don't know why everyone is so indignant and threatened every time something new is suggested to be tried out. If it proves itself helpful it is good that it was suggested, whereas if it isn't, then I am sure it will be dropped and they will return to clapping or try something else. Heck we'd still be in caves if everyone worried about upsetting the "way we've always done things"

Lyndiloo You are quite right about the universal response to pleasure and enjoyment.

The point you are missing, together with most people who are saying the Students' decision is silly, is that the Manchester University SU is only banning it for meetings and discussions where people are speaking and debating and where the audience were inclined to but-in with whoops and claps of agreement/disagreement etc à la House of Commons, which prevented others from hearing what was being said, especially those with hearing disorders who just gave up and stayed away instead.

I repeat Sara Khan's words:
""I think a lot of the time, even in Parliamentary debates, I've seen that clapping, whooping, talking over each other, loud noises, encourages an atmosphere that is not as respectful as it could be,"

They have not banned clapping in Theatres*

The ban is very specific concerning when it is in place
and
nobody will be prevented from showing pleasure by clapping at a Theatrical production.

You and many others, including the opinionated and too arrogant people in the media, would do well to humble yourselves enough to look at the facts before you start ganging up and showing off how pompous and "cleverly" outraged you can be in berating decent people. Get your facts right first!

I wonder how many of the people condemning this have watched Parliamentary debates and condemned the jeering and cat calling. It is precisely this sort of reaction that the students are trying to deal with. They are trying to be more responsible, to create a kinder area for discussion where people feel able to speak and where approval can be expressed but without drowning out or intimidating others. Where even the most nervous feel able to speak. Surely we should applaud them. And clapping can be a real problem in such a situation for those who use hearing aids and who need to keep adjusting them. The condemnation on this thread for caring young people is pathetic.

trisher Oh Trisher! I want to hug you! Thank you! You have said exactly what I have tried to say. That is what the students are doing. Miss Khan was so polite too.
Bless you! ?

What are "Jazz-Hands"?

Tillybelle I sometimes think people like these students somehow act on GN posters like a conscience and when they bring up something like this posters just try to stamp it down (Guilt?)

Petra

I think it's a bit like using the word gay which used to mean happy , gleeful.

Words take on different meanings as the years go by and some accept that , some don't.

nounVULGAR SLANG
1. a woman's genitals.
2.a person regarded as stupid or obnoxious.

verbINFORMAL•BRITISH
1. hit or punch (someone).
"if my best mate said that I'd twat him".

I think David Cameron got it right when he said " Too many tweets might make make a twat". I think he was referring to No 2 ' A person regarded as stupid or abnoxious'.

Thanks trisher for reminding us that this isn't just 'snowflakery" its based in attempting to care for others. I still wonder how it can be made easier for blind people, I'm sure theres a way
Apologies for using the term 'snowflake' - it's so offensive.