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Should everyone who identifies as female have access to women-only spaces?

(52 Posts)
FarNorth Sun 14-Oct-18 15:19:50

Times' Readers’ poll: Should everyone who identifies as female have access to women-only spaces?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/readers-poll-should-everyone-who-identifies-as-female-have-access-to-women-only-spaces-c36hw0qgk?shareToken=151bf251b05dad9fb8cc83d8aface0fc

FarNorth Sun 14-Oct-18 15:21:12

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/readers-poll-should-everyone-who-identifies-as-female-have-access-to-women-only-spaces-c36hw0qgk?shareToken=151bf251b05dad9fb8cc83d8aface0fc

PamelaJ1 Sun 14-Oct-18 15:43:38

Like IAm64 on the other thread I think I must be a TERF too.

GrannyGravy13 Sun 14-Oct-18 17:25:06

I cannot open the link.

I feel for the transgender community, but, I am sorry if you have a penis you have no place in women only places.

BlueBelle Sun 14-Oct-18 17:28:42

Looks like 98% against in that poll

Cherrytree59 Sun 14-Oct-18 17:42:04

Still at 98%.

Franbern Tue 16-Oct-18 10:51:55

I find it a little strange that so many places still have separate toilet areas for Men and Women. Why? Provided that all the toilets are inside their own cubicles, surely it would so much easier for these to be for everyone. Would also make it so much easier for taking young children to the loo, whether they are being accompanied by a man or a woman. So, we would have to be amongst men and women when we wash our hands, etc. How dreadful!!
When we visit people in their own homes, we do not expect them to provide separate toilet areas for the genders.
And, how many public places will have long.....queues for the ladies, whilst the men just walk in and out of their areas. Must say, I have sometimes gone into the Mens rather than wait in those queues.
The sooner we get round to just having good, clean, plenty toilets in all public places the better for everyone.

FarNorth Tue 16-Oct-18 11:00:45

Franbern, what are your views about changing rooms, hospital wards, women's refuges, girls'/women's sports?

Oldwoman70 Tue 16-Oct-18 11:01:44

I agree with GrannyGravy. If someone is still anatomically male then they should not be allowed in women's toilets or changing rooms. Franbern you are right we don't expect friends to provide separate toilets for different genders but that means sharing with people we know - not strangers.

PamelaJ1 Tue 16-Oct-18 12:47:25

I’ve heard that the majority of men’s toilets are pretty dire.
would we lower our standards or would they raise theirs?🤔
BTW I do know that some women seem to leave their cubicles in a rather unsavoury state too.

trisher Tue 16-Oct-18 13:28:41

It's a bit of a useless survey. How for example would you know if someone still has a penis? And then perhaps someone is waiting for surgery to complete a transition and has a penis which isn't functional because of the hormone treatment they have already received. Could you tell by looking at them?
I agree with Franbern good quality public loos with cubicles, and the same could apply to changing rooms, communal spaces for those who want and individual cubicles for those who want privacy. Girls' and women's sports at high level have been subject to checks using chromosome checks but interestingly enough this seems to have caused more harm to some women.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports

Franbern Tue 16-Oct-18 16:20:18

Changing rooms - should provide individual cubicles - so again no need for separate ones for Men/Women.
I do not, personally like mixed wards in hospitals - probably due to my age. However, if someone identifies as a woman, regardless of their genitalia, then they should be in a women's ward - and vice versa.
Someone who feels they are in the wrong body for their physical gender and has declared that, has already gone through so much in the way of real trauma - they should not be pushed into more.
Outside of prisons, (which may need more careful looking at), non-one is going to claim to be another gender to the one which their body seems to place them, just in order to go to the loo, or changing room cubicle.
As for sports, no problems at participation level - I have, in the recent past, accepted into a children's girls competition a youngster who was born with a penis, but has always lived as a girl. At elite end, there are more complications, but with good will these are being gradually sorted out

FarNorth Tue 16-Oct-18 16:23:13

How about girls' and women's sports that are not at high levels? Where testing is not done?

FarNorth Tue 16-Oct-18 16:24:27

X-post

FarNorth Tue 16-Oct-18 16:26:01

Young children have similar sports abilities. How about after puberty?

Alima Tue 16-Oct-18 16:41:20

No.

trisher Tue 16-Oct-18 17:27:59

I think FarNorth the jury is still out on women and sport. Women's acceptance in some sports is so recent it is difficult to judge how their abilities might progress and lead to some wanting to compete with men. If you doubt this consider that it is only just over 50 years since a woman ran a Marathon for the first time
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOGXvBAmTsY
And of course the FA thought women shouldn't be allowed to play football

Anniebach Tue 16-Oct-18 18:29:19

No

Iam64 Tue 16-Oct-18 18:42:44

I know, I keep saying this but, I find the issues around transgender, self ID women a conundrum. I outed myself as probably a self ID terf on the other thread. Some months ago, a much loved family member, born male but in his mid twenties agonising and identifying with transwonen expressed anger towards Terfs. I listened and empathised with his rage at the bigotory, mental health difficulties his trans friends live with. It wasn’t the occasion to develop the discussion.
I have gay friends who were in illegal relationships pre 1967 and before the age of consent for gay men was equalised.
I don’t want to share hard won female spaces like hospital wards, refuges, prisons or toilets with men. I don’t share the level of fear or anger that some express. But, I don’t feel able to dismiss fears that a small number of abusive men will exploit any opportunity.

SueDonim Tue 16-Oct-18 20:54:35

I bring you Dr Rachel McKinnon, a former man, who has just won a cycling competition against born-women.

uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/not-fair-runner-fumes-transgender-world-champion-075054632.html

tidyskatemum Tue 16-Oct-18 21:22:50

Absolutely not. I find it horrifying that bodies such as Girl Guiding have fallen hook line and sinker for the self determining schtick when they may be setting themselves up for significant lawsuits when a girl is attacked by a "female "with a penis. I enjoyed ready this www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/highlands/1502868/woman-gets-key-to-highland-hostel-dorm-after-self-identifying-as-male/

trisher Tue 16-Oct-18 21:49:17

Please will someone explain to me how if there are women only spaces you will ensure that Trans women will be prevented from accessing them? I can see that in hospital an examination might be possible, but are you suggesting that anyone who looks vaguely masculine can be challenged and if not how? Because I can think of a lot of women who might be challenged on those grounds. You see I do believe that if you have a law it should at least have some possibility of being implemented. I was also thinking of the Ladyboys who would definitely pass for women.
In my opinion it would be much worse for women if they thought they were protected but actually were still vulnerable because the law is unenforceable.

FarNorth Tue 16-Oct-18 23:44:23

Single-sex toilets and changing rooms have not been controlled by law, up to now, but people mostly abide by the conventions on them.
If government announced, however, that any male can self-id as female and be legally entitled to enter those spaces and that challenging a male, however unlike a woman he may look, could be a hate crime - I don't think it would take long for things to become quite unpleasant.

FarNorth Tue 16-Oct-18 23:52:02

trisher, you do know that, in general, men have greater strength and size than women? And that that is why most sports are sex-segregated?
If any women want to compete with men, they'd have to be prepared to deal with that and I'd say it's up to them if they want to do it. There would be no automatic detriment to the men.

If men want to compete with women, though, as Rachel McKinnon has done, they are automatically at an advantage in most cases.

SueDonim Tue 16-Oct-18 23:56:26

It seems that the public have been deceived about single-sex wards all along, despite the NHS being only too aware that sex and gender are two different things.

This is quite a long read but very informative. medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

This quote sums the whole transgender topic in a nutshell, for me.

"But for the most part, the canniest gender advocates are usually careful to hold the position that gender means something entirely individual to each person. They argue, confusingly, that there is no commonality at all of female gender characteristics, yet will simultaneously insist that gender must be the mechanism of grouping large numbers of dissimilar people into a common class. Those who are of one gender are thus all utterly different from one another, yet at the same time exactly the same."