Niqab/burqa ban in Netherlands

And well said Iam64

It has been banned here for a few years now, there was a bit of fuss at the beginning but just normal now. Everyone carries an I.D.card here and in a lot of other European countries and if you are asked to show it to anyone, banks, hospitals even buying your bus pass, then you must show your face to ensure it is your card.
Not possible when fully covered.

P.S I do realise the OP was about the Burka.

Sorry Gonegirl, it wasn’t meant to be patronising. I have met one of my hijab wearing friends in tea shops (lol) and have even met her once with her brother, sister in law, cousin and a gaggle of children so I found the original post rather odd.
It made me wonder if the OP was in the Netherlands.

I was really thinking about how nice to see that all sorts of people enjoy our countryside together. It speaks of integration and shared values to me. I am well aware that Muslims like to walk as much as everyone else!

I personally felt the idea that the three women were the wives of the man (by the original poster) was more than a bit off.
I heard something like this a few years ago whilst waiting in line at customs on the Canada/US border. A customs officer assumed the family travelling together was a man with three wives and two children. It was a man, his wife and children plus his two nieces (his brothers daughters). I knew this as I’d been chatting to them. I was shocked and embarrassed to hear them spoken to so disrespectfully. The poor man was mortified at the assumption.

If I wish to wear a big fur jacket in the middle of winter then that's my business, my body to keep warm and nothing whatsoever to do with anyone else. We wear what we like, we are free to do so.
People should mind their own business !! The same goes for Middle Eastern women. Just take no notice.

Both burqa's and animal fur seem to be bones of contention ?
Let it go and leave well alone. That's how I feel. I've travelled on planes with people in full garb, hasn't anyone else ?

So which 'rights' win? Also nobody would ever be able to identify this woman due to her clothing.

A woman was arrested and taken into custody. If she's charged and found guilty she deserves whatever the law allows - whatever she's wearing doesn't give her any more rights than another person.

So both rights win - her right to wear whatever she likes and a gay person's rights to be free from harassment.

Day6
I think the lady I saw would have been grateful for a 'slit' to see through or even breath through, it was a very hot day.
She was wearing the Burqa- Chardari. All she had to see/ breath through was a small area of mesh.

Just the other day, a young lady in full burqua and hijab was shouting obscenities at a Pride march that was going through the streets.

So here is the quandary. Two minority groups. Both, rightly, with laws in place to protect them from animosity.

So the lady has her religion which is totally opposed to that alternative lifestyle which is fine with most people. The Pride marchers should not be insulted, they too have rights.

So which 'rights' win? Also nobody would ever be able to identify this woman due to her clothing.

I think it's a shame to see the full body/facial covering. Especially in this hot weather! I also appreciate that there are women who do this of their own accord. I also know that many dress this way, basically to please the men. So we support their religion/choice of clothing but by doing so we act as enablers to those who force the clothing. It's an almost impossible situation

Anyone remember Iranian women pre Islamic Revolution? They were all in western clothing leading their lives. That all changed and photos that are available online show the difference between how they were and how they are now. The women protested but weren't listened to.

BBC News has an excellent article online about it.

So we can bend over backwards being inclusive but maybe sometimes we're enabling something that these women don't actually want.

I'm not sure why the woman in the hospital would have been terrified though. It's their way of life. And don't husbands usually attend maternity appointments?

" I think".....I think , it's good to have an open mind. Visit a mosque, it's very interesting.

It isn’t being enforced because the police feel so uncomfortable doing so.

I totally agree with Day6 and Lemongrove. I think it represents male domination and control of women, and remember , not all Muslim women wear them. It depends on the form of Islam that is prevalent in the region they come from.

Iam64 well said

As a previous poster mentioned.....the red light district in Amsterdam would make me feel more than uncomfortable.

Some absolute rubbish here, as usual.

The old bikers helmet trope and now we have bee keepers .

A huge assumption that women who are wearing burqas are subjugated and cowering.

Do any you of you live in mixed communities...and mix with women who choose to wear the burqa? Have you ever bothered to have a conversation with women about their thoughts on this?

I suppose it's quicker and easier and in some ways pleasing to trot out the junk you have read than actually think about it or meet people.

Ahem. I live in a northern former mill town. In the 1950's we invited people from Pakistan to work in our cotton mills because locals no longer wanted this work, there were better alternatives available.
We now have a fairly large population of people, descendants or relatives of those early settlers. Thirty years ago, it was rare to see any of the Pakistani Muslim heritage people wearing traditional clothes. These days, its very common, especially around religious holidays when the men wear flowing robes. We have a growing population of women who choose to wear the long black gowns, including head and face covering. I haven't researched this but it followed the anti Muslim feelings after 9/11 and other terrorism. My feeling is its political, it's a statement of solidarity with faith and belief systems. It's also in opposition to the growing number of young white British people who strip off to tiny shorts and tops (girls) and no tops, boys at any sign of warm weather.
We still manage to live in harmony. We shop in each others specialised shops, where people can be heard chatting, especially about children. "oh isn't your baby lovely, how old?" I've never seen any burka dressed woman respond with anything other than friendliness to that kind of comment.

I can't say I'm a fan of the burka. I've spent all my adult life working for equality, against the oppression of women. It's obvious that in some cultures women face more oppression than in others. I can't agree though, that every woman who chooses to cover is doing so because they're frightened of the men in their family. Some, yes but not all. I don't like to see small girls covering their hair either. But, I don't like to see small girls being given pole dancing parties as occasionally happens in the white British population.

Good post Day6! Agree entirely.

Hear hear Day6.

Whole heartedly agree Day6 , excellent post !

I absolutely abhor seeing females covered, particularly head to toe, but not my business, not my problem, thankfully.

The shame is that women living in Western countries ( actually, make that any countries) are being required by men to cover their faces in public.
Think about it, here we are, free human beings and some of us have to cover up so that nobody can see us! Can you imagine men doing the same?

the lovely girl who yesterday won a horse race at Newbury and she was wearing a hijab , good on her

I was pleased for her too, in breaking barriers, but as had been mentioned, she would have been a) wearing a riding helmet on her head and b) riding breeches, so would have had her arse bobbing about in the air as she raced her horse against others. I hope she didn't inflame male passion....

What is the bloody point? We are praising a muslim woman rider, and rightly so, but why is it also about a deviation in dress code?

Brilliant post Day6 ??

I don’t think it is anyone’s business how someone dresses or how they look

Normally, no it's not.

However, we do NOT cover our bodies from head to toe in the west, covering the face as well. We use our faces, our smiles, our expressions for communication. Not only that, a covered face is a disguise. We would not allow people to walk into certain establishments wearing masks or balaclavas so we need to be just as strict about a cultural form of dress which we do not recognise.

It's NOT Islamophobic (sigh) or anything else to require people who live alongside us to be aware of cultural norms. We should not make exceptions or tread on eggshells so not to offend.

I have Muslim ex colleages from the middle east/Asia and it is true to say they are educated and no longer accept any form of male control regarding their dress. They cover their heads with scarves as devout Muslims and agree that women wearing the niqab/burqa cause unnecessary concern, for many reasons.

It is NOT racist to question a form of dress which is not compulsory but which does offend the openness and face-to face contact that is the norm in the western world.

Here is an example of someone bending over backwards to insist any concern is racist.

We can turn the tables on people who sneer that others are racist because some people in theUK wear bee-keepers outfits or welding masks or wedding veils.

You are having a laugh, surely? Taking the P--- to say it's OK for bee-keepers or welders ! Unbelievable that you cannot discern between temporary work-wear and a person dressed in back from head to foot who cannot be identified and who peers out at the world through a slit in black cloth because her body is something we should not look at.

It's a patriarchal, antiquated custom which belittles women and has no place in 2019, especially in a liberated western society. If anything, we should fight the custom and form of subjugation in helping our anonymous, covered-up sisters to exist in their own right.

Talk about clutching at straws and being extremely keen to brand natural concern and fear (that we have no idea who walks amongst us covered from head to foot) as 'racist'.

I call out those who are so keen to label people 'racist' and Islamophobic when in truth we SHOULD be concerned. This labelling is a trend we have to guard against.

I would like them banned, I hope we go the Netherlands way, It is the ridiculous control the men exert over their women, with more education they will eventually rebel. It us cultural not religeous. Who would go around covered in black with a visor in 100 degree temperatures ? It is inhuman. We want to look into someone's face, read expressions, interact That is why everyone dreads going blind. I doubt anyone has given birth in a bee keepers visor, welder, welding visor or a gas mask. The men should wait outside whilst females are being examined, there is always a nurse present, she will be quire safe for 5 minutes.

Did any see the lovely girl who yesterday won a horse race at Newbury and she was wearing a hijab , good on her .