Niqab/burqa ban in Netherlands

It's a partial ban, so not as strict as in France. I can see some valid reasons for it. We have security camera surveillance in public places and literally anyone could wear a burqa as a disguise.

When we visit foreign countries we are often expected to abide by their dress codes. For instance, in Saudi, women are required to wear an abaya (long, loose, black cloak) over their usual clothes in many public places. You would not get away with wearing a vest and shorts!

www.news24.com/World/News/dutch-ban-on-burqas-and-niqabs-takes-effect-20190805

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/201908/medium-946754-91294c9c-3a5e-41ca-acaa-e9146c7b7710.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/201908/medium-108154-f50f48dd-13b0-4aac-b83d-d450bf404620.jpeg

I wish they would ban headscarves and hijabs for children in Australia. The amount of times I have seen girls and teenagers in hot 45 degree heat, suffering because of what they have to wear. On one such day a girl came out of her classroom while I was waiting for my GS. The bell hadn’t gone and she looked very hot and uncomfortable tugging at her clothing, she had leggings and a long sleeve top under her summer uniform and she also wore a hijab, she was around 9 - 10 years of age. She has no choice and it’s not racist to feel sorry for her.

My DS and DIL chose this area of Melbourne to live, with many refugees living in the high rise flats dotted around some lovely areas. Their DC have made friends with children from all walks of life. It’s a great area with nice people and a great school. It’s just a bit sad to see some girls in restrictive clothing on very hot days. Seeing these girls trying to enjoy the local playgrounds and activities without having to wear cumbersome clothing like their brothers can.

Many women don’t choose this, in Afghanistan women wore contemporary clothing in the 70s, they had a choice, they don’t now. This is some of what happens in those countries when women choose not to wear hijabs. It makes me cross, all women should have a choice and they obviously don’t.

Lessismore- I feel that the driving question is very relevant.
I don’t feel it is racist to prefer that drivers don’t impede their ability to see whilst driving.

I find that having my jacket hood up impedes mine. I have to turn my head more. Very often my hood stays where it is and my head turns underneath it.

I have friends in the far east who are muslim, none of the women cover right up. Recently a group of women have started he full covering with just slits for the eyes. The other muslims in the area think its terrible and hate it. So its not the norm in most muslim countries and I don't believe women like it. A great many don't even like the hijab and have pulled it off as soon as they are in class.

OK Nonnie, I can assure you I am neither patronizing nor a racist. I am an older white middle class woman....there it is.

I have volunteered for many. many years with a Church based organisation which caters largely for Muslim women. I arrived trying to be open minded, but undoubtedly carrying some preconceived ideas.

Yes, it was outside my comfort zone. I could have shoved a few books around in my local middle class library but I didn't. I am very glad I had the opportunity to learn so much.

I am actually hurt by your comment.

Lesismore I find "I have very much enjoyed getting to know some women who wear the burqa. I am proud of myself for pushing myself out of my comfort zone" quite disturbing. Why would getting to know these women be outside your comfort zone? Sounds rather patronising to me, as if you think in some way they are inferior to you. In fact it comes across as racist.

I think someone up thread, possibly Lessimore, correct me if I'm wrong, said something along the lines of "have you bothered to get to know any Muslims" well the answer to that is "yes", but "bothered" would be the wrong word really because that implies a lot of effort. I'd describe it more, as indeed I would with any relationship, "it just happened along life's path" presumably because you click with people, and they then become friends. My husband plays golf with a Jordanian and an Iranian regularly, we also have a Muslim neighbour or two who are very nice people. My husband has a close friend a retired doctor, who he has known for 30 years or more, as a client as well as a friend. The thing is they all have the one thing in common, they are completely western, some practice their religion, some don't but they aren't living in separate enclaves they are fully integrated, not lives apart, so much so, it would seem from certain social situations there are those that enjoy the odd glass of so we can only conclude they are not avid adherents to the religion they were born into. Nevertheless those that do practice, such as the doctor friend, wear their religion very lightly, it's incidental quite honestly.

I/we don't know any Muslims of a more conservative nature, who wear traditional dress, maybe because our paths don't cross. I did get engaged in a conversation in my local park recently with a very nice lady, when her children were playing with my grandchildren, she had a long tunic and hijab, but you can hardly ask a stranger why they choose to dress the way they do because, unless they raise that in the conversation, it would imo be impertinent to do so yourself.

Moving on to men accompanying wives into an examining room at a hospital. No I don't find anything wrong with that, my husband, if I remember rightly was with me during my antenatal check ups. Furthermore if it was an appointment for something of a very serious nature then I can see one might want someone with them.

.....but embarrassing on a windy day!?

Probably keeps sperm at the optimum temperature for conceiving.
Also very nice to look at, kilts.

" changing a pair of shoes due a law about safety is in any way comparable to choosing to wear a certain style of clothing connected to religion."

But some ethnic clothing is sort of unhealthy. Covering up your skin makes you more likely to be deficient in the sunshine vitamin.

Kilts worn with no underpants are positively good for something or other I forget what excatly.

I think it’s a respect for other countries laws and customs when you live/holiday there, which some folks choose not to acknowledge. I’m always happy to learn new things, part of life’s rich tapestry etc

I don't think changing a pair of shoes due a law about safety is in any way comparable to choosing to wear a certain style of clothing connected to religion.

I do think I am completely wasting my time though.

Uk Less. Sorry if that sounded as though I was in some ‘far off realm’ I was just trying (clumsily) to make the point about national matters.

In Spain we’re not allowed to drive in backless sandal (mules/flip flops etc) and I keep a pair of flat courts in the car for that purpose. Because those are the rules in the country that I choose to holiday in......how hard can it be? Their country, their rules versus me....

Which country do you live in Nanny 27?

What an interesting thread. In our country we rely on cctv cameras in our towns and cities as major contributors to our safety in security. For the system to be effective the cameras must be able to identify people on the street and in public buildings. ( motorcycle helmets are not allowed to be worn in pelican or retail establishments).
Face covering in public is therefore unnerving for some people and detrimental to our sense of security.

Indeed Minniemoo

Thank you for those photographs. Isn't it awful? Says it all really.

For me, the subjugation of women - being obliged to cover up from head to toe - is an out-dated, misogynistic ruling, a form of control and oppression which robs a woman of certain freedoms and it has no place in western society.

I was reading about the French reaction to the wearing of the burqa.

"In 2009, French president Nicolas Sarkozy gave a speech that called burqas "a sign of subjugation, of the submission of women."

"Sarkozy vowed that burqas, the facial veils worn primarily by Muslim women, would not be welcome in France because the country didn't believe that women should be "imprisoned" or "deprived of identity" [source: Carvajal].

"There can be no doubt that this oppression and requiring women to wear a burqa is just one way that the Taliban terrorised women in Afghanistan; failing to don the garment earned women public beatings"

"After troops entered Afghanistan to take on the Taliban in 2001, reporters spoke of women walking into the streets and ripping off their veils [source: Whitlock]. To some, this made the burqa an enduring symbol of an oppressive and dangerous regime

"That's not the only symbolism the burqa has taken on; the garment now means so many things to different people that it can be difficult to determine its real meaning and purpose. To those like Sarkozy, the veil is a dehumanising prison that turns women into second-class citizens."

"It's possible to see the veil as a rejection of Western values and the uniform of a dangerous subculture."

Minniemoo, excellent articles, thank you for posting. They sum it up so well. Those who shout racism should stop and think for a while, because in shouting racism, they are supporting the subjugation of women.

Esspee, I don’t know about the hijab but you can fall foul of the law if you wear unsuitable footwear to drive in.

If you have an incident or accident and are judged to be wearing footwear that can be deemed to be a factor that contributed to the incident the police can fine you up to £1000. Your insurance company can also refuse to pay up.
I presume that restricting your field of vision may also contribute to the likelihood of having an accident.

This article sums it up really.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-47032829

And what's going on today

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44040236

Very sad to see this imposed and a happy female population end up being oppressed.

I too don’t remember seeing anyone covering their faces until relatively recently. It is a new phenomenon in Britain. There were always people dressed in saris, or other types of cultural dress, but NO face covering until a few years ago.

Another good post Day6, the one immediately before mine.
(I’ve only just found this thread today. )

Day6’s post on 2nd August, at 8.34 sums it up superbly.
I’m sick to death of hearing people cry ‘racism’ as soon as anyone questions some behaviours. It is not a cultural norm in this country, or indeed in the west, to walk around covered from head to toe and looking out at the world through a slit. Of course no one should be expected to dress in western clothes if they prefer not to, but this total covering is another thing altogether. And the covering of children’s hair from as young as 4/5 years old is unacceptable in the west too in my opinion. I worked for years amongst Muslim women, not a single one of them covered their faces, although some covered their hair. No problem. The problem is not being able to see the person you are interacting with. As I also worked with young children, I think it would have been quite scary for them to be confronted by a faceless person.

Again, apologies but this just isn't true

The arrival of the Burqa is a relatively recent form of dress for Muslim women

I don't know where you live Lessismore but I can remember spending a weekend in London and NOT seeing anyone wearing a burqa. This was a while ago, but still in recent memory.

I remember being shocked when I DID see a burqa wearer a few years later. I was horrified. It wasn't something I'd seen before. Since then the wearing of the burqa has become more common.

So it IS a relatively (note the word 'relatively') recent form of dress in the UK and many suggest it was brought in by fundamentalists who decry western values.

Since the 1970s we have all been used to seeing Asian women (and men) in traditional dress, and many of us have been invited to hospitality in mosques and temples. I have had the pleasure of attending Asian festivals and wedding ceremonies too.

I have written enough on this thread about why I feel we should ban the burqa so I won't repeat myself. I will however add that the Muslim women I know are appalled that radical, fundamental Islam, which requires the wearing of the burqa is spreading. They say it is dividing Muslim communities too.

Scienta

The hijab is different to a burka.