Moral dilemma: How To Sack Old Retainer

Well, if he is spending a lot of time chatting and having fag breaks than he is not working. vegansrock has said he often doesn't turn up for one reason or another, so is not reliable.

If employing someone to do gardening work most people would want the job to be done properly, particularly as the rate per hour is that high. It's not a charity.

It is sad but he sounds as if he has got too comfortable and is taking them for a ride.

We probably pay about that rate for someone to come and cut lawns, do heavy pruning and other jobs as required but he doesn't stop and is excellent value for money.

Rather you than me - how do you know he is being 'lazy'?

How much over 60 is he? Does he have other jobs? How will he sustain himself if he loses that one? How sad.

Septimai
Would you give him a reference? Out of kindness you might, but then your only passing on his laziness to someone else. Not fair.

I'm not sure how much in the way of employment rights this man would have; he is self-employed and it sounds like a casual basis.

Self-employed
If you’re self-employed, you do not have a contract of employment with an employer. You’re more likely to be contracted to provide services over a certain period of time for a fee and be in business in your own right. You’ll also pay your own tax and National Insurance Contributions.

You don't have employment rights as such if you're self-employed as you are your own boss and can therefore decide how much to charge for your work and how much holiday to give yourself.

You do have some legal protection. You must not be discriminated against and you're entitled to a safe and healthy working environment on your client's premises.

Nortsat is right. Employment rights didn't occur to me.

I suggest you take some advice on how you should terminate this man’s employment, after 20 years service.
If his work is not up to the standard required, the Committee has a responsibility as his employer to make this clear, to set out it’s requirements and standards and to monitor his outputs.

I appreciate that he’s self employed but he may have accrued additional employment rights by length of service. I think it would be well worth getting some HR/legal advice before terminating his employment.

I do feel he is taking advantage of your good natures and perhaps knows you are reluctant to give him notice.
does take several tea, fag and chat breaks

Who chats to him? If it's one of the residents then they shouldn't do that until he has finished the job satisfactorily.
Fag breaks- no wonder he has a lot of health issues.

You really need someone who will give value for money and it sounds as if he knows he's on to a good thing.
Good luck.

vegansrock

We wouldn’t object to the payment if we felt he was value for money. But he is extremely slow and does take several tea, fag and chat breaks during his stint. Think a male version of Mrs Overall. Thanks everyone for the advice, I agree honesty is the best and I will suggest to the committee we pay him until Christmas, so giving him a decent notice period.

In that case, it seems a new keen gardener would be the best thing.
He will have other gardening jobs if he only does four hours a week for you, anyway.

There are a couple of things that crossed my mind.

1. He's been doing the job for a long time and maybe has just 'drifted' into being inefficient. Some clear guidance as to what needs doing might make a difference.

2. He might already be aware that he's not up to the job but doesn't want to let people down.

I think you should talk to him first and see what the situation is.

Also, are there any people in the vicinity who are struggling with their gardens? Would any of them be glad of his help? Suggesting that there are one or two people who would want his assistance might soften the blow.

But you should talk to him beforehand giving him a chance to change his ways.

We wouldn’t object to the payment if we felt he was value for money. But he is extremely slow and does take several tea, fag and chat breaks during his stint. Think a male version of Mrs Overall. Thanks everyone for the advice, I agree honesty is the best and I will suggest to the committee we pay him until Christmas, so giving him a decent notice period.

Self employment has it’s own costs. £18.75 an hour is not unreasonable for someone having to cover all costs (including travel, insurance, tools, waste materials disposal etc). Also, if he’s paid calendar monthly, it’s £17.30 per hour, not £18.75.

i'd be surprised if you could get a gardener for much less than £20 an hour.
but i agree with janeainsworth's approach in this case.

I'm always amazed at people who suggest telling lies as a way out of an awkward situation.
(only one on this thread, tho)

To be honest 60 is not old to be doing 4 hours work a week, most men are still working a full week at 65 or more. at nearly £20 an hour he’s on a cushy number Like Merylstreet I do far more than than on my allotment each week and I m a lot older
To me it sounds as if he’s never been given a list of jobs that need doing Can you not list the jobs that need doing and then if he doesn’t come up to scratch you will have ample reason to say bye bye, without having to lie or make up excuses and will also give him the chance to prove himself (if he can )

We had the same problem in our flats recently, jobs not being done. However, after a meeting saying that some people were not happy how the garden was being kept and what needed to be done, it is now looking a lot better. Your association should meet him and say what is expected and then it is up to him to either admit he can’t manage and stop or he can subcontract the work he can’t manage. It isn’t fair not to give him at least a warning.

I think giving him a list of jobs, that you obviously know he can’t do is prolonging the agony, for all parties. If it were me, I’m sure he’s not daft and knows, two months notice and a gift. Perhaps retain for a short while so he can show a newcomer around, if he takes the notice well?

Sorry mis read the self employed bit

Oopsadaisy
As he is an employee I guess you will have to sack him? And give him formal notice, but have you given him written warnings?

Vegansrock said he is self-em[ployed, so she doesn't have to go through that process.
But common decency dictates that he is treated fairly.
£19 an hour isn't excessive for someone who has no holiday pay, no sick pay, can't work in poor weather, has to fund their own pension etc.
But he does have to be able to do the work.

Old retainer also made me laugh. I'm 74 and I look after a gentlemans garden. I use the hedge strimmer, dig, plant, tie back and nail to the fence any large shrubs that are falling over. I've had to get into the pond to untangle some weeds taking over.

Ummm he’s on nearly £19 an hour! I would wander around with a leaf blower for that money. It’s a pity that you have let him carry on for so long.

As he is an employee I guess you will have to sack him? And give him formal notice, but have you given him written warnings?

You might need to take some advice on this

janeainsworth I agree completely with this. It's the kindest and fairest option.

£300 per month for 16 hours work .
OMG ,he knows exactly what he is doing at a slow pace.
Just telling him the club needs to be making money not giving it away.

A sympathetic approach might be to say you’ve noticed he seems to be finding the heavy work rather difficult and would it suit him to reduce his hours so that you could pay someone else to do the stuff which he’s avoiding.

vegansrock absolutely do not lie to him. He deserves better than that.
Grannysomerset is quite right - he needs to know what your expectations are and then it’s up to him to decide whether or not to meet them.
It’s not an easy thing to do, but the committee has let things slide and unfortunately you’re the fall guy.