People who menstruate

It is interesting that the aggression in the Trans debate seems to come from males transitioning to women not the other way round. Isn't it just another example of men, brought up with all the privilege that being males involves, telling women what they should think and do. It's just another example of men trying to dominate women. As feminists we should resist this. No person raised as a man in a male dominated society where women have to constantly adjust their behaviour to keep safe, to achieve, to earn, knows what it is like to be a woman . You have to live it to be it.

I guess I just feel it would be better to accept trans people and especially transwomen into the womanly fold (as women)
Starblaze No-one on here has said they don’t accept trans people. I think most people on GN are tolerant people. I’m sure that most trans people struggle with their decision to transition and deserve support throughout the process.
What isn’t acceptable is the pretence that people with beards and penises are women, and the bullying that seems to accompany their demands for ‘rights‘. Can you explain why their rights should take precedence over those of cis women?

I don't quite understand the why

I'll try to explain it to you Starblaze. Removing the word woman or women from products that are predominantly used by people with the XX chromosome, is misogyny and, as others have already explained, is another step in removing the category of women as a human being. You have no problem with san pro being advertised as "For people who menstruate"? Do you imagine that their will be signs advertising Durex for "people who ejaculate"?

It's precisely because women have fought for their identity, to be seen and heard as independent beings, that we are so alarmed at being air brushed out of society now and all because the word woman presents distressing boundaries to the identity of male people.

For someone who self identifies as a feminist, I'm surprised that you don't know this.

Starblaze, I think most people are prepared to live and let live if people want to transition, but as has been pointed out, it’s the trans activists who push and bully for societal and legal change.

But I’m afraid I can’t ‘adjust . . . perception of what constitutes a woman’ because a woman is a woman and no fluffing round the edges can ever erase or change innate biology and people can’t be expected, and certainly not forced, to believe it can.

In what way would it be better for women?

I’ve not shopped at M and S for nearly a year now since they opened their changing rooms to self id- ing women.

I didn't know that, suziewoozie.
I must admit to not shopping there because I couldn't find anything I liked last time (hence didn't use the changing rooms).
They do have doors with bolts as far as I remember, not just curtains, but even so I would be hesitant to use them.

So how do we define people who do not menstruate?

I understand that people are upset

I don't quite understand the why

I guess I just feel it would be better to accept trans people and especially transwomen into the womanly fold (as women) and just adjust our perceptions of what constitutes a woman because they aren't going to go away and society is going to carry on becoming more accepting whether people like it or not.

It beggars belief that this has been allowed to take hold in society in the way that it has.

Even more shocking is that it's a movement that's being supported by women who claim to be feminist.

FarNorth

The wording 'people who menstruate' is meant to include transmen (and non-binary people) but it is helping to remove the category of woman, as a female human being.

That is also an aim of many transwomen and activists.

Spot on FarNorth. It beggars belief that this has been allowed to take hold in society in the way that it has.

The wording 'people who menstruate' is meant to include transmen (and non-binary people) but it is helping to remove the category of woman, as a female human being.

That is also an aim of many transwomen and activists.

The "we're all people" argument is disingenuous nonsense. We know we're all people. But some of us are femail people, otherwise known as women and some of us are male people, otherwise known as men. And the moot point here is that males physically cannot menstruate because they do not have the physiology to enable them to do so*, ipso facto, they are not women. Femails, on the otherhand, do have the physiology to menstruate, even though there will be times in their lives when they do not bleed. Ipso facto, they are women.

if you’ve decided not to be female

Someone may decide that but it is impossible to stop being female (or male).

TRAs are insisting that anyone who says they are a woman, is one, and should be treated legally as a woman.

This has already caused assaults to women and girls in hospital wards and prisons when males' claims to be female were accepted as fact by organisations which should know better.

The issue is about transmen that's the whole point. It is nothing to do with transwomen. Transmen mostly get overlooked in the debate. I cant imagine why.

Purplestar I have to be completely honest, I hadn't thought of it from a trans male perspective but that just makes an even better point doesn't it

Gay men experience prejudice and inequality as do black men, men who do not present in a typically masculine way experience bullying and harassment, none of this makes them women.

Starblaze,your comment is a wonderful response and how I wish everyone would respond.I understand what the OP is saying but,until a very close family member or friend is Transgender then you have no idea what they go through.You can legally and physically pass as a Male,but still have periods.They do usually stop after taking hormones for a prolonged time.For people "transitioning" it makes a difficult time even harder.

I guess I just look at the ways trans women are the same as us and listen to their feelings and experiences

There is always someone in any demographic who let's every one down and I don't give them my attention

This is an interesting read...

Because if you look at how different all of us are an the different ways we have experienced inequality or prejudice or unfair judgement, how has this woman not a woman?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/02/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-woman-it-is-not-just-about-femininity

As if I take any notice of anything Says a silent Maverick.
I'd like to meet the person who brainwashes me !

How can transwomen feel like the woman they feel inside if there is no such thing as a woman.
I think the figure for those who commit violent sexual assault is 97% male. It's one of the reasons we segregate by sex.

It's a mad mad mad mad world.

Anyone who thinks use of toilets is the issue worth flagging needs to do some serious reading. But if you’ve done some, what’s your take on the TRAs attitude towards lesbians?

Specifically which reading are you referring to Suziewoozie?

Although let's not assume I have done none.

Oh dear Star you really need to do some reading around the topic.

I wonder if they'll now do unisex razors and foam, 'for people who shave'. No more Gillette for Men, but an androgynous razor that works just as well on women's armpits, bikini line and legs as they do on rugged jawlines. And whilst they're at it, they should rename those personal hygiene products for women at that difficult time of the month so that men and women can wash their nether regions; let's see how many men take that up!

Women have had to fight for hundreds of years to be heard, seen and respected. And now we're slowly, but surely, having the very word woman erased. How can anyone claim to happy about this whilst claiming to be a feminist?

Why do I need to answer what makes a woman if I am not the one who is having a problem with trans women?

Explain to me how they aren't a woman in a way that will make me understand and make trans women feel any less like the woman they feel inside*

Also I did mention I would be more comfortable with a move towards seperate cubicles so I'm not sure why you threw that at me suziewoozie

Women can be and have been prosecuted as sexual predators too.