People who menstruate

So, if you prefer to believe they actually know what they are doing and they will and do protect vulnerable women., it would appear that they are being shouted down by male managers of the refuges. Who'd have thought it?

I dont feel negatively about women who work in refuges, I think that people who are threatened will find it very difficult to speak out, I think there are many brave women who are beginning to do that. I think the women in the Vancouver rape crisis centre are extraordinarily brave. Braver than me.

Chewbacca the statement about women's refuges is untrue.

Mark/Melissa Addis, a violent male who identifies as a trans woman, was convicted of putting a person in fear of violence by harassment at Snaresbrook Crown Court in 2014. At some point during incarceration or on release from prison, Addis began identifying as transgender while living in Stonewall Housing Association’s LGBTQ Project for homeless lesbian, bisexual, gay or transgender people. Despite knowing of Addis’ history of domestic violence towards a female partner, the Stonewall project made a referral to the East London Women’s Project (ELWP) run by St Mungo’s, the homelessness charity. The policy of allowing transgender women into the female-only hostel apparently started in 2016 and was driven by a man named Simon Hughes, St Mungo’s regional director for East London.
A staff member complained about Addis’ behaviour (shouting, crying, threatening violence against other clients in front of frightened, vulnerable women) and about the policy of allowing transgender women into ELWP, but their complaints were ‘shut down’ by senior management.

We do it by providing unisex and single sex spaces. Most laws are unenforceable to some extent. We have laws against drink driving but still many people drink drive and are never caught, we dont abandon that law because of that. We make it a cultural norm that when women say no that no is respected, that their boundaries are respected. Of course some people will abuse that trust we dont stop trying to maintain boundaries just because that happens.

Galaxy I'm sorry you feel so negatively about the women who work in refuges they were asked about their experiences. You seem to think they would willingly put women at risk I prefer to believe they actually know what they are doing and they will and do protect vulnerable women.

They are there already Galaxy what is the point of a law that is unenforceable? how will you stop a trans women from entering a woman only space? Lift her skirt? There are many women who will be very offended if you ask them to do that simply because they don't look girly enough. It is no use offering protection that simply isn't workable.

Womens refuges wont receive funding unless they say that trisher, the women who use the services are saying it very clearly but their views count for little, in private prison officers, those who work in refuges are raising serious concerns. The refuge in Canada that is for women only , is under constant threat, it has been the subject of threats and stripped of funding, you cant expect any one to express their feelings about this when to do so would mean they would lose their job or in many cases be threatened by violence.

I am sure that a better mind than mine will come up with safeguarding techniques to protect all groups and individuals without discrimination

Not if the changes to the Gender Recognition Act are ratified it won't. The imbalances will, once again, disproportionately affect women.

If you say that men can enter womens spaces then by doing that you discriminate against the women I have mentioned. They cant use those facilities so where do they go. When I say you I dont mean you as an individual I mean those who say men can be in womens spaces. It's not a personal statement.

Chewbacca the statement about women's refuges is untrue. People who work in women's refuges stated to the parliamentary committee that they were satisfied that their risk assessment procedures would ensure that anyone who posed a threat to women in refuges would be excluded and that includes women who beat up other women.
Transwomen have been in the spaces you define as women's spaces for years and years, you just didn't know they were there. Jan Morris began living as a woman in 1964 and didn't have surgery until 1972, so for 8years she used the women's changing rooms and loos. Just because you now know they are there doesn't mean they suddenly become a threat.

In 2017 -18 there were 134 sexual assaults in changing rooms ( swimming pools, changing rooms etc) of those assaults 120 were in unisex facilitiess and 14 were in single sex provision.

Galaxy again, where have I said that?

I think this is a bit pointless to be honest with you if words and ideas are going to be assumed of me. That's not open honest discussion.

I appreciate the opportunity to think about it all though and I am sure that a better mind than mine will come up with safeguarding techniques to protect all groups and individuals without discrimination. As they have already for many other issues.

I ask that the discrimination be removed where possible that's all.

But it's vulnerable cis women who are being discriminated against. How would you deal with that?

But you would force women who through trauma or religion cant share spaces with men into where exactly. That's discrimination.

And if there are no individual changing rooms? And you're a 15 year old girl, stripping down to your underwear and the "woman" standing next to you is actually a man? What then?

I'm not going to force a transwoman into a male space or a trans man into a female space either so if they end up with no space to use as a result that's discrimination. I ask that the discrimination be removed where possible that's all.

Why would we need both?

If they are next door to each other anyway....

In reality I refuse to use shared changing rooms now. But again the rights of the individual are paramount so individual changing rooms is the answer for me

Starblaze are you aware that the government is considering changes to the Gender Recognition Act? If it is passed, it will make it very difficult to refuse any man, including those who self identify as a woman, to refuse to accept them in women's spaces. This will include Women's Refuges, where women who have been brutalized, raped and psychologically tortured by males, go to as a place of safety. They don't want biological males near them because they are afraid of them. But if a biological man, complete with his penis, decides to identify himself as a woman, those refuges cannot refuse to allow him access, even under the Equality Act exemptions.

The Women’s Aid motto is “Until Women and Children are Safe”. We do not feel safe having males in our spaces. If my rapist follows me you will ring 999. You will get the police to do safety checks on my welfare. If he comes near the refuge you will force me to leave there for my own safety and the safety of other women, yet if he puts on
a dress and calls himself a woman you could welcome him into the refuge and call women bigots for objecting. Under the new law you may be forced to do this.

I find it unbelievable that anyone who would profess to have empathy and understanding for people in need of support and empathy, cannot empathise or understand why having men, in women's spaces, is a violation of our rights and is causing very real alarm and fear for thousands of women.

I think you can solve toilets in a heartbeat. You provide unisex and single sex. It's easy.

Cross post

Not really starblaze, it's a clash of rights, and they are pretty impossible to fix, so no I dont think you can safeguard women if men are in prison with them, I dont think you can safeguard women in sports if men take part in those sports. As I have said sex segregation by its nature is discriminatory.

You first galaxy it's only fair

Can I ask why you dont take him in when in a single sex space?

galaxy can you see that there are ways of doing things that don't make trans people feel discriminated against and still safeguard all individuals?

I can and do take him in when in a shop with unisex cubicles.... Ooer