People who menstruate

To be honest there are times during the pregnancy and birth process where I wouldn't have cared if the entire England football team and a 300 piece orchestra was in the room, probably wouldn't have noticed but that was a very sore and vulnerable time where I really needed some more confortable clothes

Sorry that didn't particularly address your issues, single sex and mixed, both with cubicles.

Yes of course single sex spaces and mixed. It's very easy.

Galaxy you answered did you not by reversing it and understanding what I meant?

Or did you mean to insult me? Because I hadn't read it that way.

People's opinions of what I meant aren't really ok when I have explained several times.

Galaxy I agree with you there but it does make me think about the fact that some people I am happy to share communal spaces with but not strangers. I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't feel stalls give enough bathroom privacy and doesn't like to get changed in front of other women who are sometimes very judgemental over women's appearance.

I remember a young woman giggling with her friend when she saw my newly vacated stomach like I didn't exist or post partum women lose the ability to hear "ew look at her".

So is there a way to accommodate everyone?

Isn't that what it's all really about?

You asked me about being transphobic or trans exclusionary as well starblaze.
You dont have to believe what others do not to discriminate against them starblaze. I dont believe in god this does not mean I am discriminatory against people who do.

Well if you are talking about the loss of single sex spaces you are talking about the entire female population. I suppose I am of the view that no women should lose out to make men feel better.

Flowershop I asked you because it was a lead on to a point, not because I was calling you that. I was asking if you accept that others may view you that way. I don't think it came out as I intended and for that I apologise.

I accept your answer that you cannot be either because you don't recognise those terms.

So thank you for answering, it makes it easier to understand.

Can I ask though, if others who would call you that do, would it therefor be an insult if they are just working with their belief system and your view makes them feel discriminated against?

To clarify, I am not calling you closed minded as a person, just as it relates to this topic that you seem 100% set in your views on.

I apologise for the misunderstanding.

I will also apologise if you are not 100% closed minded on the acceptance of trans people and I was wrong?

Most people really just want to be who they are and live their lives accepted.

And of course they can. Provided that they don't expect everyone else to make exceptional allowances for their own particular problems or life choices.

Galaxy

It has eroded womens rights though, the right to self determination, the right to single sex spaces, women are loosing spaces on scholarships, men are taking spaces on boards etc that have been specifically set aside for women, and to be fair all the women I know who are vocal on this subject are also very vocal on subjects such as abortion, prostitution, male violence etc etc.

Do you have any evidence of the numbers involved Galaxy? I bet there are more women losing their jobs when they get pregnant! pregnantthenscrewed.com

trisher

Chewbacca you are entirely entitled to think that. What you are not entitled to do is to insist that only women menstruate when some of those who menstruate choose not to be called women. Of course you can make your arguments to them. Of course you can tell them they are wrong but if they choose not to believe you, you cannot make them call themselves anything.
You may even be right about the word woman although I'm not sure calling a product for people can be seen as dehumanising it. It is in any case a very recent change and who knows what else may follow.
All of this anger, all of this confrontation has been caused by a few outspoken transgender people who are possibly not typical of the whole community. The response from some claiming to be feminists has been anger and antagonism which has only served to inflame matters. Inclusivity, the protection of the weakest, the ability to negotiate and embrace others have always been part of the feminism I believe in. Patriachies survive through division and conflict.
The trans community has been around for a long time. It has not committed the crimes some insist will happen. It has not undermined or eroded women's rights. I wish those who are so vocal about this would attach themselves to some of the very real injustices currently being inflicted upon women and stop imagining how transwomen will behave. Most of them are victims and not the enemy.

Really well written. There really is always a few letting down any demographic but again, listening to the loudest, the angriest... over the majority is a choice.

This is what sucks about the invention of social media sometimes, that it gives the vocal extreme a platform.

Most people really just want to be who they are and live their lives accepted.

Starblaze

Flowershop please quote me where and when as calling anyone anything or insulting them. I don't think I have because I am being careful not to but if I have I will apologise.

@Starblaze
Asking me if I would call myself transphobic or trans exclusionary is extremely insulting.
I don't have a closed mind either, that's another insult from you.
I find Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander very informative on the whole trans woman debate. Debbie Hayton, not so much
Maybe you should take your own advice and expand your reading material .

All of this anger, all of this confrontation has been caused by a few outspoken transgender people who are possibly not typical of the whole community

I totally agree with you on this trisher and I do believe that it is the strident demands of "the few" that has caused such a backlash.

Also I and many others are fighting desperately for the rights of transmen.

It has eroded womens rights though, the right to self determination, the right to single sex spaces, women are loosing spaces on scholarships, men are taking spaces on boards etc that have been specifically set aside for women, and to be fair all the women I know who are vocal on this subject are also very vocal on subjects such as abortion, prostitution, male violence etc etc.

Chewbacca you are entirely entitled to think that. What you are not entitled to do is to insist that only women menstruate when some of those who menstruate choose not to be called women. Of course you can make your arguments to them. Of course you can tell them they are wrong but if they choose not to believe you, you cannot make them call themselves anything.
You may even be right about the word woman although I'm not sure calling a product for people can be seen as dehumanising it. It is in any case a very recent change and who knows what else may follow.
All of this anger, all of this confrontation has been caused by a few outspoken transgender people who are possibly not typical of the whole community. The response from some claiming to be feminists has been anger and antagonism which has only served to inflame matters. Inclusivity, the protection of the weakest, the ability to negotiate and embrace others have always been part of the feminism I believe in. Patriachies survive through division and conflict.
The trans community has been around for a long time. It has not committed the crimes some insist will happen. It has not undermined or eroded women's rights. I wish those who are so vocal about this would attach themselves to some of the very real injustices currently being inflicted upon women and stop imagining how transwomen will behave. Most of them are victims and not the enemy.

Yes, I agree with that; trisher has debated without descending into insults, as have most people in this discussion.

No I did not call anyone anything I asked a question.

I'm quite respectful of others beliefs really and have said several times I understand how people feel.

I simply want the same in return.

I only ask that my beliefs/views be equally valid and explain that others may view things differently.

If my thoughts aren't wanted, it would be easy to just stop challenging them directly

I'm calm, some others reading this thread may be upset by it though and that matters

Can I just say that I have absolute respect for trisher in this debate, we have had numerous debates about this and I think for different reasons it is very important to us both, but she never ever calls people names, and always argues fairly, I will revert to being stroppy now

You called me transphobic or trans exclusionary starblaze, it didnt upset me because I know I am not and it's better than being told to die in a fire which is the usual response.

Because a closed mind benefits no one, least of all you sadly

An unnecessary comment Starblaze.

They can call themselves whatever they like trisher, I really don't care. What I do care about is that in society's endeavours to be seen as "woke" and "inclusive", it is women who stand the most to lose. Omitting the word women from feminine products is a small thing but it is not mirrored by omitting the word men from male products. "Just for Men" for example should become "just for people who produce sperm". Have you noticed how men's products haven't been changed?

If dehumanising language can be used for women, then the same is true of men. I have no issue with women who want to be men or vice versa; but I do have issue with the rest of us having to accommodate their choice by having a part of our identity air brushed out. To deny that this is a backward step for feminism is either misogynistic or sexist. Or both.

Have you listened to Fionne orlander, debbie Hayton, and buck angel on this subject starblaze, all vocal transwomen and transmen, who would agree with me on this subject, because a closed mind helps no one .

Flowershop please quote me where and when as calling anyone anything or insulting them. I don't think I have because I am being careful not to but if I have I will apologise.

Male and female brains not at all regressive. There are numerous studies disputing the idea of a male or female brain.
We dont divide services by gender starblaze we divide them by sex.