Strange beliefs about the covid jab

@greenlady102 yes I agree with you. We got vaccinated because we care for elderly parents and also so did their carers. I too respect people's choices, but there are jobs in which unvaccinated should not be working,

I really have a problem with people spreading rumors' and nonsense about the vaccine, basically spreading hate and division between families and friends. I would love it if someone could stop the brainwashing on these unregulated sites, but unless the government find a way to regulate Telegram and other underground sites it will probably keep happening.

I was working in social care in an NHS setting in 2009 and remember the pressure placed on us, but particularly on NHS staff to receive the Swine flu vaccine. People had similar concerns about the fact this was a new vaccine without any long term data. Those people were ridiculed and accused of much the same stupidity and ‘strange beliefs’ as those spoken about on this thread. Well, oddly enough, fights for compensation for Swine flu vaccine damage are still going on, and millions have been paid out to people (including children) who suffered long term and life changing damage - specifically narcolepsy which has ruined their lives. So forgive me if I refuse to respect closed minded people who now ridicule others for questioning and hesitating with regard to new vaccines. Science is not static, there is no definitive proof that something is safe, theory is tested and ever changing as new data presents itself. We all have to make up our own minds for our individual and family circumstances, on the basis of all the information available at the time.

btw a mate of mine had one of those magnets you put in your knickers for painful periods....she gave it up when she kept getting stuck to supermarket trollies....true story
and greenlady

Interesting point Nightowl. I dont have a problem with people deciding not to have it, it's the rumours about chips and zombies plus cutting people out of their lives that I find extreme.

Callistemon Knicker magnets! Going to google that lol

Greenlady102 That explains it!

I do not think anyone has suggested that vaccines are 100% safe, what is in life? But the risks from the vaccine are very very low compared with the risks from COVID and the same would have been true of swine fever if it had spread the way COVID did.

Over 1 million people, mainly young people, have long COVID and we do not yet know how many more may develop it, nor do we know how long they may be affected, some almost definitely will have had their lives destroyed by the disease.

Few of us can be unaware of how desperately ill and disabled Kate Garraway's husband is, over a year after he caught the disease, and though there may be none as ill as him there will be many who are still very seriously ill and may never recover to lead a normal life.

Yes Monica, that's true about Kate G's husband who has had a terrible time and yes a lot of people still have long covid. I guess it's about taking a calculated risk.

I will never agree with people shutting out their family and friends, punishing them for having the covid jab. I think it's extreme fear on their part and that's very sad that they haven't been able to see that those people are still the same people they always were.

But Monica my point is it doesn’t matter how small the risk is, people are entitled to weigh up the risks and decide they do not want to take that chance. That does not make them stupid or irresponsible or selfish. And when they are told they should have the vaccine to protect others in my view that is outrageous. To compel or shame people into accepting any form of medical intervention against their will is a very slippery slope, and something I find quite terrifying.

Nightowl. Of course people are should make their decisions on whether to have the vaccine or not and that decision should be respected, but the decision they are making should be based on clear and medically verifiable information and they should fully understand the risks of the decision they are making.

However, declining the vaccination and trying to get other people to refuse the vaccination for reasons that have no basis in reality - that it will damage your DNA, affect your fertility, Bill Gates is injecting microchips into you, it will scramble your brain etc, is something else entirely.

From everything I have read on GN, online, in the papers and from those people I know who have refused it, the majority of those refusing the vaccine are not doing so because they understand the science and the comparative risk, but because they have read these irresponsible and unverifiable stories put out by people, whose motives vary from the malevolent to being just totally credulous.

It is worth noting that when the vaccination teams go out to the communities where take-up is low and speak to them in their community centres and places of worship and explain the science behind the vaccines, the vaccination rate rises significantly.

Nobody should be made to have a vaccination, although I think it is reasonable to say that all those working in certain professions should have it. But if you are going to take this risk, it should be because you are making it with a clear understanding of the risks you are running and if the worse happens, well, you had all the correct information, made your choice and if that results in death or disability, you went into it with knowledge and thought

For someone to refuse the vaccination because they believed one of the many unfounded scare stories then get COVID and die, is a desperate tragedy, because all the evidence suggests, that properly informed they would have made a different decision.

I’m with you Nightowl compulsory vaccination is a very scary slippery slope. We have no way of knowing why people choose not to be vaccinated, there are many and varied reasons, and so to be respected. As citizens as Individuals in a Free country we have the right to assert autonomy over our own bodies.

Well said MOnica

Stormystar

I’m with you Nightowl compulsory vaccination is a very scary slippery slope. We have no way of knowing why people choose not to be vaccinated, there are many and varied reasons, and so to be respected. As citizens as Individuals in a Free country we have the right to assert autonomy over our own bodies.

Out of interest, are you vaccinated ?

Lucca I have been expecting someone to ask those of us who are expressing more reluctance about the vaccine whether or not we have had it. I was deliberately vague about my own decision in my posts although I may have said previously whether I have had the vaccine or not. All I will say is I thought about it long and hard and did not feel it was entirely a free choice.

In the end, I don’t think my decision is relevant to the debate. If I say I didn’t have it I’m likely to be dismissed as yet another stupid anti vaxxer conspiracy theorist. If I say I did have it then it’s likely people will ask why I keep on giving a different view. Can’t really win if you don’t accept the party line, which is what worries me so much. It seems the whole world has accepted a view that there is only one way out of this and freedom of thought is no longer acceptable.

nightowl I have yet to read any post that suggests that someone refusing the vaccine after considering all the evidence-based science has been dismissed as a stupid anti-vaxxer.

On the contrary, I think most people have made it very clear that their concerns and frustrations are very specifically with those opposed to vaccination for reasons that have no basis in science that we can see and despite constant requests, will not explain or indicate where the evidence for their concerns can be found.

It is not unreasonable to ask someone who believes that the vaccine causes infertility, to ask for the evidence for this, since so far main stream science has been unable to find out whether this is true and what the mechanism for it could be.

It is also not unreasonable to be sceptical of this belief, when the person concerned consistently ignores these requests and whose only justification for their convictions is essentially 'because I say so'.

A lot of people here don’t want the vaccine and it is mainly because there is little first hand experience of the disease. They just don’t realise how awful it actually is because Australia really hasn’t had much of it. I go for my second shot tomorrow and, having a granddaughter who has nursed Covid patients , I feel it is the right thing to do. I think the government needs to work on peoples’ awareness here because, basically, most think they are ‘safe’.

I would add Stormystar that nobody has advocated compulsory vaccination, although some of us believe that it should be compulsory in some professions where not having it puts vulnerable people at risk.

Yes, there are many and various reasons for not wanting the vaccine, but not all should be respected. Can you tell me why I should respect the views of someone who hasn't had the vaccine because they believe Bill Gates is putting a microchip in every dose?

Supposing I told you I hadn't had the vaccination because I believed the vaccine made people grow wings and fins, would you respect that decision and if so, why?

Monica you’re right, it is not unreasonable to ask people why they have views which appear irrational. But on the other hand I sometimes feel so out of step with what the whole world appears to accept as normal that I have learned in wider society to be wary of expressing my opinion. I am even out of step within my own family.

For example, I have always believed it is most likely that Covid escaped from a lab and was laughed at openly for this, at home and everywhere else. Someone close to me was at great pains to mansplain to me why this could not possibly be the case and said the WHO had examined it in great depth . Well it now appears that other, more eminent brains than mine are suggesting this theory is worthy of further consideration. Who’d have thought?

In my humble opinion, the simplest explanation is usually the right one. (Said Mr Occam)

Luca if I am vaccinated or not is not the issue, I’m affirming the right of the individual to have autonomy over their own body. If it means not being able to work in particular professions if it means not being able to travel or socialise, so be it. But their human rights to have control over their body I consider to be sacrosanct.

Monica why all the baiting we simply hold differing perspectives. I choose to respect others opinions even though I may disagree with them. The right to free thinking and freedom to choose is the cornerstone of a free society, whether we like it or not isn’t the issue

Stormystar

Luca if I am vaccinated or not is not the issue, I’m affirming the right of the individual to have autonomy over their own body. If it means not being able to work in particular professions if it means not being able to travel or socialise, so be it. But their human rights to have control over their body I consider to be sacrosanct.

I’m just interested. If you are not I’d like to hear why,(particularly as you sound as if you’d be up for a rational debate rather than conspiracy theories) if you are then the same question applies?

Stormystar I am not baiting anyone, but whether one respects others peoples opinion even though one disagrees with them, depends on their views and their reasons for them.

Would you respect the opinions and reasons of someone who advocated the reduction of the age of consent and of marriage to 12 years old as in other countries? Somehow I doubt it. You would be critical of the person advocating that and of the reasons they put forward

The problem in this case is that but I would like to know and understand why people reach different decisions and this is what a lot of us have asked politely time and time again and answer comes their none. If we knew and understood their reasoning, we might espouse their views. That is not baiting that is seeking after enlightenment and understanding.

M0nica

Stormystar I am not baiting anyone, but whether one respects others peoples opinion even though one disagrees with them, depends on their views and their reasons for them.

Would you respect the opinions and reasons of someone who advocated the reduction of the age of consent and of marriage to 12 years old as in other countries? Somehow I doubt it. You would be critical of the person advocating that and of the reasons they put forward

The problem in this case is that but I would like to know and understand why people reach different decisions and this is what a lot of us have asked politely time and time again and answer comes their none. If we knew and understood their reasoning, we might espouse their views. That is not baiting that is seeking after enlightenment and understanding.

yes, I agree. I know people who have genuine, deeply considered reasons for refusing vaccination. I am fortunate in that none of their reasons applied to me (and its too late now anyway as I chose to be vaccinated and am now double dosed) but if there are good reasons then i'd really like to know what they are.
As I have said previously, I absolutely support personal agency. When i was at work and dealing with people whose care came under the mental capacity act, I use to annoy colleagues by pointing out that all to often the step asking if there was evidence to show what choice the patient would have made if they had capacity. Too often health workers would jump straight to the "best interests" clause to support their own opinion of what should be done to the patient.

but again as I have said before....choices have consequences.....

I’ve been mulling this over and have had a few thoughts which may not be particularly earth shattering but hey ho.

It seems to me that people who have worries about this whole vaccine question are always asked to justify their beliefs. Now I actually quite enjoy debating this in a mutually respectful way. But what interests me is the fact that people who don’t question the vaccine are never asked their reasons for this. So it’s acceptable to take a chemical into your body which will change something forever, has not had long term trials, just because we are told ‘it’s the right thing to do’. At no stage is anyone asked to explain their reasons or sign a disclaimer to say they understand the risks and benefits and have made a free and informed choice. But those who decide not to do anything to their bodies are held up as irresponsible and usually stupid as well.

It reminds me of the whole Brexit debate. Many remainers still insist that we only got Brexit because those who voted to leave were too stupid to understand the implications, and listened to propaganda. It comes back to the view held by many that the electorate is generally stupid. If only the uneducated underclass would listen to us superior beings and stop spoiling things for the rest of us they cry!

So my general conclusion is that it doesn’t matter why people decide not to have the vaccine, it is their choice to make, for whatever reason or none. Just as it is everyone’s right to have the vaccine with no understanding of the risks, the research, or even the fact there could be any debate about this.

nightowl I think you are missing the point. There is information galore about how the vaccines work and their advantages and plenty of scientific articcles to. Both radio and tv have had deep investigative enquiries into it, and below this you will find a whole series of links to infomration on the COVID vaccine.

www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

www.imperial.ac.uk/covid-19-vaccine-trial/vaccine-science/

www1.chester.ac.uk/news/covid-vaccine-and-clots-what%E2%80%99s-science-behind-headlines

What we would like to see is similar data for others supporting counter views and this is what we have asked for again and again and have not been given.

You say I actually quite enjoy debating this in a mutually respectful way. but how can we do this if we do not have the evidence for the counter views.

No Monica, with respect I think you are missing my point. I don’t think it matters two hoots whether people have any evidence for their decision not to have a vaccine. They have the right to make that decision. They also have the right to not have to justify it to anyone else, just the same as those who decide to have the vaccine don’t have to justify that decision. I’m not naive enough to think that the drug companies don’t have huge vested interests here, or that anyone will ever be funded to do truly impartial research.