How many times should you apologise? If the apology is not accepted, then what?

Onwardandupward I feel for you. Your decision to keep a safe distance is a good thing to do for you. 💐
For some people nothing is ever enough.

Looking at it from the point of view of cancel culture I think things can easily get out of hand. Kevin Hart, comedian, for example. Said some unfortunate things when he was younger, which were dug up on social media. He apologised and pointed out that he was older, and not the same person. It wasn’t enough. Same with Danny Baker. Retweeted a photograph which had been used previously to mock royalty - a chimp sat next to a well dressed couple, with the caption ‘royal baby leaves hospital’. He unthinkingly used it for Archie and as soon as it was pointed out that Archie was mixed race he apologised and deleted it. Not enough. Cancelled, sacked from the BBC and branded a racist. I’m not supporting these actions, but how many times do people want someone to apologise for past indiscretions ? IMO once is enough if you mean it.

Mollygo

Onwardandupward I feel for you. Your decision to keep a safe distance is a good thing to do for you. 💐
For some people nothing is ever enough.

It does feel like that.

We even allowed them to live with us for nine months while they were looking for their own place. I do regret it seeing as he got angry every time his wife and I talked (we did get along, but he was massively jealous and actually asked me to be mean to her. I refused)

What if an apology is not enough. Actions speak louder than words. An amends (trying to repair what u broke) is much more worthwhile. Words sometimes are meaningless without action behind them and intent to change and do better next time

I’ll bite. We were estranged from dhs parents before they passed on. Yes estrangement is not a new concept. We put up with years of truly intolerable disrespect and poor behavior from his mother namely before Dh finally said enough. He did not want her in our or our children’s lives. I’m certain she spun this as my doing but honestly did not care. She eventually apologized to my husband but her apology fell short of owning any wrong doing. It was more of an “I’m sorry you felt that way”. And as such we didn’t really accept it. We were proven correct in thjs assessment when she immediately resorted to the prior bad behavior - and threatening to turn up, how dare he etc. in short, an apology is only really an apology with action to prove it. When we have wronged someone, simply saying the words I’m sorry is often not enough. Or perhaps it is enough for the person to hear it , but then need time to process and rebuild the broken relationship - it’s rarely “I’m sorry”
And then everything back to how it was , for two reasons. 1. How it is was wasn’t working for both of you and 2. A breakdown of relationship to the point of estrangement isn’t usually one small thing but often years of many things. Such things take considerable time and healing

Otter99

What if an apology is not enough. Actions speak louder than words. An amends (trying to repair what u broke) is much more worthwhile. Words sometimes are meaningless without action behind them and intent to change and do better next time

Yes Otter99 .

But if its a problem caused by something in someone's childhood that isn't currently happening, I dont see what you can do. For example, say your child is so mad that you made them go to school and didn't allow truanting? It's not applicable to today and therefore cannot be corrected with actions.

Grams2five I appreciate what you're saying. When he brings up gripes it's never in the present tense, but things that happened a long time in the past. That's why I can't go back in time and change it. If he was annoyed with me in the present tense, I could definitely address it and try to change. We've never gone round his house unless we were invited, for example. We've always asked them what to get GCC for Christmas or birthday. Pretty much everything in recent years has been for their convenience, which is probably why he cannot and does not bring up resentment about the present and recent past.

Onward he obviously needs to watch Frozen! Or at least that drafted song….Let It Go!

I think its naive of people in some cases to think an apology makes things ok. I think that could be considered quite entitled.

Well, something is not matching up, that's for sure. I wonder if he would attend counseling together and see if a trained therapist can break through whatever the issue is and come to a better understanding and future relationship?

But then there are also things like addictions, personality disorders and so on that can prevent any real progress with someone.

I wish it would work out for you. It seems clear that you really want it to.

It seems that those past wrong doings are still effecting him today. While
You cannot go back and change the past have you tried expressing a deeply felt apology for the way the past was - and asking him what you can do to try to make amends ? Without knowing the complaints it’s hard to say - and I will admit we reached a point in our own estrangement when really there was nothing that could be done, mil couldn’t undue her past behaviors and the hurt of those things was not a thing we could move past even if she had bee. Genuinely sorry I’m afraid. But If he’s still bringing up long ago hurts as you say - it seems they aren’t so long ago to him.

Apologies are important in the present. When stressed or under pressure, most of us can be irritable or forget something. An immediate heart felt apology will be enough in most family circumstances.
If one party has a bag full of resentments they’re fuelling by adding any perceived rejection or lack of understanding to, no apology will be enough.

Estrangement is so hurtful, it can be like a bereavement without any of the rituals to help people through. It’s also usually associated with shame and blame. Relationships can be rebuilt in some but not all circumstances. Sometimes, a good therapist can help unpick the key issues and help reach a decision about whether keeping on keeping on is least worst/most healthy.
You’ve posted a few times OnwardandUpward. I hope you can find an easier path with your son.

Grams2five you're right, it's way in the past- but because he remembers those things "as if they were yesterday" even if they are not, he keeps them fresh and renewed. As a result, none of the good things we have done in the past few years are enough and nothing is enough.

Blueberrypie I doubt whether he would agree to a counsellor as he points the finger at me and blames me (never himself) but a counsellor would be likely to have a more balanced approach and possibly some accountability for him. I don't feel safe being around him at the moment, until I know he is not clouded by drugs or hostility anymore.

I do not want to apologise anymore for things I cannot change and actually he has never taken responsibility for anything and it's always "Everyone else's fault but his" (except a lot of things are actually me responding in the best way I possibly could to things he had done)

Galaxy

I think its naive of people in some cases to think an apology makes things ok. I think that could be considered quite entitled.

Well it obviously doesn't

I am more fed up about the narrative in the estrangement forums sometimes that goes along the lines of "If only my parents would apologise."

I get upset by it because it implies that if their parents admitted "wrong" and apologised that they would forgive them. I doubt this is the case. I don't think apologising for doing your best should be necessary when you have always done your absolute best because no one can do better than their best

But I have apologised. And I don't see that I should keep apologising for doing my absolute best.

Additionally, while he condemns me and takes no responsibilty for himself he takes drugs with his kids in the house. I have not pointed that out to him because I have not seen or spoken to him since finding that out from someone else. It's always easier to condemn someone else's parenting than be a good parent. I have never taken drugs or put my kids at risk like he is doing.

midgey

Onward he obviously needs to watch Frozen! Or at least that drafted song….Let It Go!

Haha yes! If only!

Deedee1012 said it very well

This is very complex and an apology does not erase the damage

Do you all remember the Japanese tradition of putting back a broken piece together with gold coloured glue?

When trust is gone, it has to be rebuilt

Another issue is if it is a faux apology, it make a things worse

Demanding an apology is worthless because it is forced, the person is not ready to admit fault and change what's wrong

Also, if the act that prompts the apology is repeated after the apology is given, what's the point of apologizing?

If you feel you are being abused, protect yourself, refuse to deal with deal with this person.
Apologies are not magic wands.

Saw the update

Apologizing for having done your best as a parent is not an apology

How did that "best" impact him? That's key

I had the same issue with my parents- how their best was not my best
How not putting me on the pill for extreme amd disabilitating menstrual pain for years was not the right call or go to a non religious obgyn to help me - they preferred to pick the route of "What would family and people say our daughter is on the pill, she is a whore"

On a basic level, if my minded children commit some misdemeanour (pinch someone's toy for example) we don't just "say sorry," we discuss together why that's not acceptable, point out that they wouldn't like it if someone did it to them, then we say together, "I'm sorry for pinching your toy, and I promise I won't do it again," and they give the toy back.
Everyone's happy and the onus is on them not to do it again. It works really well!

I'm imagining how Harry might have felt if he'd been in his father's position and not allowed to marry the woman he loved because she was a divorcee. Unfortunately Harry doesn't seem able to put himself in another's shoes.

Yes Baggs it would be an interesting question for an interviewer to ask him... 🤔

V3ra and Baggs

That doesn't justify how bad he treated Diana

Don't you think his sons saw that?

Hithere

V3ra and Baggs

That doesn't justify how bad he treated Diana

Don't you think his sons saw that?

I did not say it in order to justify anything.

Do I think Charles's sons saw him mistreating their mother? I've never given that a moment's thought until now.... I don't think it's inevitable that they saw or understood how their parents' marriage was playing out.

Grams2five

I’ll bite. We were estranged from dhs parents before they passed on. Yes estrangement is not a new concept. We put up with years of truly intolerable disrespect and poor behavior from his mother namely before Dh finally said enough. He did not want her in our or our children’s lives. I’m certain she spun this as my doing but honestly did not care. She eventually apologized to my husband but her apology fell short of owning any wrong doing. It was more of an “I’m sorry you felt that way”. And as such we didn’t really accept it. We were proven correct in thjs assessment when she immediately resorted to the prior bad behavior - and threatening to turn up, how dare he etc. in short, an apology is only really an apology with action to prove it. When we have wronged someone, simply saying the words I’m sorry is often not enough. Or perhaps it is enough for the person to hear it , but then need time to process and rebuild the broken relationship - it’s rarely “I’m sorry”
And then everything back to how it was , for two reasons. 1. How it is was wasn’t working for both of you and 2. A breakdown of relationship to the point of estrangement isn’t usually one small thing but often years of many things. Such things take considerable time and healing

Great comments

Some people are just not nice. Remember the serenity prayer, that’s a good start,. I think if an apology is sincerely meant, people deserve a chance, especially family, if the apology is thrown back at you, do you really want that person in your life? Let them go to be happy with the life they prefer without out you. Concentrate on the lovely people you do already have in your life, they are what matters, be happy. There will be times when you get upset and miss what once was but if you remember it’s their choice it might be easier. Life is too short to worry about things you can’t alter, you did your best, can they say that? Then there is Karma.

That's a good one Allsorts. I tend to think of it as the Alcoholics prayer (no rudeness intended) just because the people I've known who have it displayed are usually recovering from an addiction- but I suppose we can in a way be addicted to people.

Hithere rebuilding is not an option when there is complete estrangement. I have never expected an apology to be like magic and I am fed up with feeling like I am supposed to apologise- but ending up doing it thinking it's what he wants to hear- and then he goes over the same cycle all over again. I don't believe that an apology changes anything really, either.

The thing is, he wasn't angry about anything in the present tense- it goes back about ten years or more to some times when he dropped out of education (not my decision, but his)

Him blaming me for decisions he made in the past is not helpful and as we have been very good to him, there is literally nothing he can condemn in present times. I really wish he would get some type of help to move on from the massive grudge.

You can’t apologise forever if ppl don’t accept it you then just walk away and let them live their lives and you live yours. If you were in the right or the wrong weather it’s family or friends

If an apology is insufficient or not accepted, I have found it helpful to ask how I can make things better/make amends - particularly (as in this instance) for things that happened long ago. If the answer is ‘nothing’ then breaking or reducing contact is the only way forward but it is just possible that there is something that might help. It also places the responsibility firmly with the ‘wronged’ person to find their own solution which absolves you from trying to guess how to resolve things.