Taxing the rich to pay for the poor

Callistemon21

Vintagewhine

Intellectual snobbery because I want all school leavers to have the same choices regardless of wealth or lack of it? What rubbish! Please explain why it's intellectual snobbery.

Calling anyone who does not go to university factory fodder

This.

That was me. And I didn't mean it in the way you seem to have taken it. What I am criticising is the idea that people should only get the education that their work 'needs'. So if you don't go to university you will end up in a low-paid role with few prospects. 'Factory fodder' is a shorthand term for that.

That is what it was like when I was at school (comprehensive in the 70s). The assumption was that most people would leave at 16 and get apprenticeships (boys) and do low-level office work (girls) if they had taken exams, or get unskilled work (labouring for boys and production-line or shopwork for girls) if they didn't.

I blame the parents! Those who want their children to go to uni regardless of what the child may wish to do.

Of my friends' children one or two were very good at art and were persuaded not to go to art school but to study a more "useful" subject. Art could be kept as a hobby.

The majority of my clients are artists and most of them went to art school. Few of them made a lot of money when they were young and so they did other jobs. A postman or two, a haulier, several art teachers whether at school or college. Most of them continued to create work and to endeavor to show it. Making one's work known to the public is the most difficult although these days it is easier with online shops.

Iam64

One of mine got a good English degree from a university 5th in top ten for English courses. She loved her course and enjoyed student life. For a year after graduating she did agency work with no idea what she wanted to settle in. One temp job was in Housing. It lit her fire. 15 years and 2 children later, she’s a bid writer in construction. Her sister did drama and performance at Salford - much sought after degree course. She was involved in teaching Romeo and Juliet to year 6 pupils, did a pgtc and taught for 8 years. Two children and travel time plus working evenings and Sundays to mark and prep had her. Re-training. She’s a pt who now runs her own gym.
So- some would say neither in ‘graduate’ jobs. I say they matured and developed at university, and had fun. The academic rigour and long demanding hours on the drama course means they mix well, understand hard work and sticking at it.
Degrees aren’t just to ensure grads earn pots of cash.

I’m sure I read once that many university students don’t go on to a career in what they get a degree in.

The government has already created 5.7m apprenticeships Glorianny, and is pledging a further 10k.
www.michaelgove.com/news/apprenticeship-week-michael-gove-celebrates-560-apprenticeship-starts-surrey-heath-last-year

"Factory fodder” can't really be used in any other way than pejoratively.

Cossy

“ Calling anyone who does not go to university factory fodder”

I’m utterly astounded!!

Not only is this terribly ignorant, it’s completely inaccurate!

In our family of 5 children, we have two graduates, one is doing well in recruitment (nothing to do with the combined law/psychology degree he took and passed), the other is a primary school teacher. Of the non grads, my dear step-daughter is earning the most and has the highest, very senior position in banking, one is a civil servant, in management at 23, the youngest has very few formal qualifications, is very artistic, plays in a band, writes his own songs, does bar work and is a DJ. He’s very creative, musical and artistic. Not one “factory fodder” candidate among them!!!!

VW wasn't using the term pejoratively. Offence has been taken where none, as far as I can see, was intended.

They could have done that in the last 14 years if it was such a good idea.

Apprenticeships that offer university training are vastly oversubscribed and only accept candidates with excellent exam results.

The Conservatives have said they will provide more apprenticeships. Its actually possible to qualify as a doctor or solicitor through an apprenticeship - they are not just for manual workers by any means.

Wyllow3

There are few viable routes on proper apprenticeships now for young people, I believe it's holding our economy back dreadfully. some employers offer them, but many cant afford to unsupported.

However, I also cannot agree that its OK to end up with a situation where only young people from better off families can move into the arts and humanities or go on courses that don't offer clear career paths. Very wrong.

However, I also cannot agree that its OK to end up with a situation where only young people from better off families can move into the arts and humanities or go on courses that don't offer clear career paths. Very wrong.

Well, I agree with that too, Wyllow. Of course we need people qualified in arts and humanities, not just science and technical subjects.
I don't agree with the huge loans that graduates are burdened with at the start of their working life.

But I do not think that university is for everyone and that more choices should be available. It should not be a case of university or factory fodder.

One of mine did a combined Arts/English degree, another a Mathematics based degree. Another did not and took technical qualifications (that was three years at a college also) but has since changed direction completely.

Sandwich courses offered by large firms many years ago (HND, some degrees) were a very good way of ensuring this country had a future workforce of well-educated young people with the skills and experience needed to succeed without being faced with enormous debt.

“ Calling anyone who does not go to university factory fodder”

I’m utterly astounded!!

Not only is this terribly ignorant, it’s completely inaccurate!

In our family of 5 children, we have two graduates, one is doing well in recruitment (nothing to do with the combined law/psychology degree he took and passed), the other is a primary school teacher. Of the non grads, my dear step-daughter is earning the most and has the highest, very senior position in banking, one is a civil servant, in management at 23, the youngest has very few formal qualifications, is very artistic, plays in a band, writes his own songs, does bar work and is a DJ. He’s very creative, musical and artistic. Not one “factory fodder” candidate among them!!!!

Wyllow3

There are few viable routes on proper apprenticeships now for young people, I believe it's holding our economy back dreadfully. some employers offer them, but many cant afford to unsupported.

However, I also cannot agree that its OK to end up with a situation where only young people from better off families can move into the arts and humanities or go on courses that don't offer clear career paths. Very wrong.

👏👏👏👏👏

Vintagewhine

Intellectual snobbery because I want all school leavers to have the same choices regardless of wealth or lack of it? What rubbish! Please explain why it's intellectual snobbery.

Calling anyone who does not go to university factory fodder

This.

Vintagewhine

Intellectual snobbery because I want all school leavers to have the same choices regardless of wealth or lack of it? What rubbish! Please explain why it's intellectual snobbery.

It's not, VW. I think you and I are coming from the same place. We should all be able to take advantage of a good and rounded education, regardless of our career choices.

My decorator has a degree in Music. She enjoys decorating, and as a mother of young children finds it hard to get a musical job that doesn't involve touring, so she set up a decorating business, and doesn't take on work when she's playing. She doesn't see her degree as a waste of time or money.

Similarly, I know people who have jobs in (amongst other places) the local council, who went straight into supervisory/lower management roles straight from university just because they have degrees, managing people without them who have worked there for years. I can see no sense in that either. They learn on the job, as no degrees teach local government practice, AFAIK.

Of course, there are roles where people need subject-specific knowledge - I don't want to be treated by a doctor with no knowledge of biology, or have my children taught by unqualified teachers. But IMO if there is the snobbery it is in assuming that tradespeople shouldn't go to university, and that graduates should have their path through management eased by blocking those without degrees. That is not to say that a university education doesn't confer transferrable skills - of course it does. But these can be tested 'on the job' or in open interviews.

An educated workforce is better for the country as a whole, and the cost is only an issue when universities are treated as businesses rather than services.

There are few viable routes on proper apprenticeships now for young people, I believe it's holding our economy back dreadfully. some employers offer them, but many cant afford to unsupported.

However, I also cannot agree that its OK to end up with a situation where only young people from better off families can move into the arts and humanities or go on courses that don't offer clear career paths. Very wrong.

One of mine got a good English degree from a university 5th in top ten for English courses. She loved her course and enjoyed student life. For a year after graduating she did agency work with no idea what she wanted to settle in. One temp job was in Housing. It lit her fire. 15 years and 2 children later, she’s a bid writer in construction. Her sister did drama and performance at Salford - much sought after degree course. She was involved in teaching Romeo and Juliet to year 6 pupils, did a pgtc and taught for 8 years. Two children and travel time plus working evenings and Sundays to mark and prep had her. Re-training. She’s a pt who now runs her own gym.
So- some would say neither in ‘graduate’ jobs. I say they matured and developed at university, and had fun. The academic rigour and long demanding hours on the drama course means they mix well, understand hard work and sticking at it.
Degrees aren’t just to ensure grads earn pots of cash.

foxie48

Youngest daughter got a first in a biological sciences degree from a Russell group uni. She applied to do post grad medicine but as she was unsure that she would be offered a place she applied for a number of training posts via the Uni Milk round. She didn't want to do a lab based science job but she was able to apply for jobs that were nothing to do with her science degree. She did get a couple of offers and would probably be earning lots more if she had taken one of them but money is not her motivator and she got a place to study medicine. This idea of students doing degrees that lead to a job is really very out dated, some are very job specific but even those open doors to all sorts of different career opportunities.

Maybe she should have studied medicine the first place there is a big demand for doctors and nurses. Biological Sciences is is far too wide ranging to be job based.

Youngest daughter got a first in a biological sciences degree from a Russell group uni. She applied to do post grad medicine but as she was unsure that she would be offered a place she applied for a number of training posts via the Uni Milk round. She didn't want to do a lab based science job but she was able to apply for jobs that were nothing to do with her science degree. She did get a couple of offers and would probably be earning lots more if she had taken one of them but money is not her motivator and she got a place to study medicine. This idea of students doing degrees that lead to a job is really very out dated, some are very job specific but even those open doors to all sorts of different career opportunities.

David49

I agree that University should be free but there should be much more emphasis on the skills the nation needs Nurses, Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers. The state should only provide free places in the skills we need, the rich can pay for places for their children if they wish.

Then there would be no new blood coming into other areas , and into teaching them to the next generation. There is as much potential for innovation in a "lad o' pairts" as there is in someone from a family who can afford to pay for education, and a teacher who was born into an unprivileged familywill understand the problems facing his/her pupils better than one who always had a quiet room to study in and a good breakfast before setting out to school.

It would also increase the growing divisions in this country between the professional class and the "hoi polloi", driving them into becoming like the Eloi and the Morlocks of H G Wells "Time Machine". While we struggle to be fair to male and female, trans and cis, black and white, native-born and immigrant, we could be ignoring another division - educated and ignorant.

In this country if you want to have a large house, be extremely wealthy and have a flash car - be a plumber. If you want to be poor- go to University . It will take years to pay back the debt and more and more are deciding it is just not worth it unless you are very specific in the course you take.

Intellectual snobbery because I want all school leavers to have the same choices regardless of wealth or lack of it? What rubbish! Please explain why it's intellectual snobbery.

I’m not disagreeing with either of you and I absolutely respect the value of apprenticeships. What I object to is the idea that a ‘tradie’ shouldn’t have a degree, or that someone who does have one should have roles ring-fenced for them when it’s not necessary.

Why not separate education from work and let people do what suits their abilities until they start working? They can then train ‘on the job’ as most people do anyway - few graduates walk straight into jobs and do them on day one. If they could do that, I’d question the (already nebulous) notion that they are ‘graduate jobs’ in the first place.

What is a ‘graduate job’? Someone upthread talked about grandchildren without degrees getting them, which doesn’t make sense to me.

In my/our generation many professionals qualified on the job local colleges providing the tuition part time. You can still do that, 3 yrs working is worth more than a degree to many employers.

Doodledog

Marvellous. So as in the past, only the rich can learn about literature, art, history etc. Everyone else is factory fodder. How do we get social mobility in that case? Or do we not try? Keep the majority in ignorance of life-enriching subjects, and let the factory owners (mostly Chinese, probably) determine what is taught to our young people.

What is a ‘graduate job’? Someone upthread talked about grandchildren without degrees getting them, which doesn’t make sense to me.

I agree with your post, Vintagewhine, and it seems that there have been almost wilful misunderstandings of what you were saying.

Your posts are usually sensible but thst one needs questioning.

In what way is a skilled and qualified person who has completed an apprenticeship ^factory fodder^lacking in social mobility?

That too shows a complete disregard for many well-qualified members of our working population.

I agree with your post, Vintagewhine, and it seems that there have been almost wilful misunderstandings of what you were saying.

No, there is not. I understand intellectual snobbery when I see it.

Sorry, my last sentence ran away with me. Most jobs don’t need graduates, is my point. Many employers prefer them, but that’s a different matter.

Ok, I’ll try again. What is a non-graduate job? And why shouldn’t someone with a degree do one?

What is it about degrees that should guarantee their holders a well-paid or interesting (or whatever the definition of a graduate job turns out to be) for life?

That’s what happens when education is restricted to those who can afford it, or is otherwise rationed. People with no management skills and no ‘people skills’ can end up managing much more capable workers simply because of differentials in their qualifications. That’s bad for industry as well as for the people concerned.

Let everyone be educated to the best of their ability and allow open competition for jobs that don’t require specialist knowledge (very few, outside of genuine professions) to be restricted to graduates.