Appalling behaviour at a contact centre

Doodledog

What is an SG, and an SGO, please?

What measures have been taken by the school to stop a ten year old from walking the streets in school time, and why is the security so lax that this can happen? Presumably if he can gt out then an intruder can get in?

Has the older boy turned into a nightmare since his diagnosis? What was he like before that led to the investigations?

Special Guardian and Special Guardianship Order:

childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/special-guardianship/

At contact centres, the whole thing is usually observed by professionals - what were they doing throughout this?

Hi everyone, thank you for your comments and advice. The SG has now cancelled further contacts at the contact centre and got the local council on side. We have had loads of perfect contacts up to now but the SG has been trying to stop contact ever since she was awarded the SGO. The SW made some very poor decisions - she was even criticised by the Judge for not doing proper assessments. Even worse was what happened to my GD (DDs child by her ex husband). GD was handed over to her father (self confessed drug addict and violent after drink, married another ex drug addict because the same SW told him he had a better chance of getting his daughter if he did). A few weeks later they were both found to be assaulting her and she was taken away again and handed over to his mother. DD fought this all the way through but it didn't matter. The ex MIL then applied for and got an SGO herself, moved 100 miles away and stopped all contact. Despite another court action we have not been able to reinstate it. So instead of 6 contacts per year DD can write two letters. GD is almost a teenager so we are hoping that she might start to question this in a few years but there is nothing else we can do. We don't even know if she is receiving the letters. GD lived at 4 different addresses and attended 3 different schools in her first year of school. The MIL then blamed us for the fact that GD needed "therapy" but never said what sort of therapy she was attending. It is so sad because DD and GD were very close up until she was removed at the age of 3. We don't know what she believes now and we can't find out.
We also know that both SGs contact each other behind my DDs back and post messages to each other on Facebook, as we have a mutual acquaintance who tells us what they post.
Yes I agree that GS1 appears to be expressing his anger through his actions and seems to need some professional intervention. It was the first time he had behaved like that so we don't know whether something at home has triggered it. The worry is that as he gets older he will become violent if he doesn't get some help and thinks that is the only way to get attention. He has autism and has limited verbal skills so I don't suppose he knows how to express himself any other way. I don't blame him but none of us want to be on the receiving end. DD loves all her children and this has had a devastating effect on her. My older daughter no longer speaks to her so our family has been completely split in half. There are so many relatives that the children will never know at this rate.
The manageress of the contact centre was furious when DD told her and has decided to take up the matter on her behalf. I have spent years supporting DD2, paying for counselling, propping her up, pushing her forward as well as supporting DD1 through a mental health crisis and DH through a heart attack whilst still working in my 70s. Even the cat has had cancer. I'm exhausted.

Controlling unruly children is all very well .but is too simple as a solution. This ten year old boy is obviously very unhappy and likely to be more so unless his worries are dealt with, so he can learn self control.
The fact that the little boy's foster parent disapproves so strongly of the natural mother makes me think the child needs to be away from the natural mother, for some reason or another must be an unsuitable parent.

Young social workers may lack practical experience but at least they know the theory.

I’m so sorry you’re all in this situation sparklygran and also fairly appalled at the lack of support and intervention at the contact centre. I’ve experience as a volunteer in one. When contacts were proving difficult, not a rare occurrence, the manager would speak quietly to the contact parent and ask if we could help, making it clear the choice and control lay with the parent. If the offer was accepted siblings were sometimes separated, someone staff would sit quietly close to the family to support the parent and intervene if necessary, practical suggestions were made and there was no way any children were allowed near the kitchen or a tap. I truly hope your next experience is less stressful for everyone and you all get some support during the contact time. It’s hard I know but please don’t give up.

What a truly awful situation
Would it be possible to have visits with the boys separately ?

The contact centre sounds appalling how can the boy be allowed in the kitchen doing damage without who ever is controlling the sessions taking charge surely it’s not left to you to look after the whole building

I can’t really offer any advice as I ve never been in this situation My children’s father just walked away from everything and although it seemed awful at the time no money and no father figure what a blessing in disguise

Good luck you all sound at the end of your tether and that I understand Take care of yourselves and your daughter 💐

PS, I really do feel that the elder boy needs to have his feelings recognised and legitimated preferably by you two grandparents who already have established relationships with the children. I do hope you can see your way not to abandon the boys.

I know nothing about autism or ADHD but I feel sorry for both the children, for the different reasons you describe.
My feeling, for what it's worth , is that at these contact meetings the badly- behaved boy needs to express his painful feelings even if this means he floods the floor from the kitchen tap. I imagine any physical restraint would be hell for him. A flooded floor is a small matter compared with the boy's feelings. You can easily wear safety clothing and safety footwear so you can be a haven of peace for the child.

When the elder boy attacks you it's your duty to escape from his attacks not to restrain him. The reality is you are a physically frail woman .

Primrose53
I totally agree , people assume the worst when these things happen . In my own custody battle my then abusive DH fought tooth & nail . By some bizzare error of judgement he won .
He then went on to carry on a relationship with an 18yr old who lives a few doors away - ignored his DC - teenage GF a few years older then my own DD ordered them about .
It took only a few weeks before they returned to me of their own accord .
There you have it , if I had written that on here then I am sure I would have been slated , my crime fleeing an abusive man .

sparklygran
How very sad this is & yet again some GNettet’a seem to think this is a made up story😢
Yes , I have also read the comments confirming an ongoing storyline from sparklygran.
How awful to be living with this ongoing nightmare for you all , your DD & her DC .
The system has truly let the whole of this family down . Whatever the outcome of all the advice given to get the much needed support it is so sad to think that these children will be scarred for life & as also already said suffer from a form of PTSD . What prospect of a normal life do these poor children have with such awfulness surrounding their upbringing with the appointed SG’s!!
From personal experience I know only too well that things so not go the way that they should .
When my own DM passed some 40plus years ago leaving siblings of under 10years old , the decisions made have severely affected those , one having been adopted into another family( none related ) where the Adoptive Mother had some contact with our DM in some sort of professional way ,but that was all . It didn’t turn out well , nobody within the family had any contact with him estranged from his younger almost twin sibling & older ones with the addition of grief.
He left as soon as he turned 18
That’s just part of the story , he is an angry man now in later life,
. Also he definitely has undiagnosed ADHD .
This is not a made up story it is part & parcel of decisions made without discussions between the wider family & SW’s apart from a very few with myself as eldest sibling .
I wish you luck sparklygran & hope your family can find some peace & order in this whole mess 🙏

I’m so sorry for you all sparklygran. I’ve been a social worker for 45+ years and I can absolutely believe everything you say. That’s not because I believe social workers are all bad but I have seen how situations and legal proceedings can evolve and bad decisions made even if in good faith.

I’m so sorry, it appears there is little you can do to change things. As others have said, the SG has parental responsibility (so does your daughter, but the SG holds all the cards when it comes to making decisions). I can see that the contact appears to be not helping anyone at present but please don’t give it up because as you said, you and your daughter will be left with nothing. What were the conditions attached to contact in the SGO? Is there any way your daughter could have contact with the boys separately? Although I doubt from what you say that the SG would agree to that.

Have you had any contact with the Family Rights Group? They are an excellent source of support and advice. I wish you all the very best.

www.frg.org.uk/FandFCForum/viewtopic.php?t=5187

Sago

I wish I could offer some help.

I worked with Social Workers for a number of years and I can believe everything the OP says.
For every good social worker I think there are about 10 bad ones.

I too agree, not necessarily deliberately, their caseloads are high, the worst are those freshly out of University, where they are very well versed in the theory with none of the practical experience.

I feel so sorry for all involved!

Carmen54

With regards to the boys behaviour...this is due to the devastating upset in their life..they hav3 Fathers that Don't care..what a horrid start to life

With regards to your daughter..People don't usually have their children taken away for no reason and it might be about proving to the courts that she is a good parent

Don’t you believe it! Out there somewhere are 3 siblings who have all been adopted even though their parents did nothing wrong and it has now been proved in court but judges say it is now too late to put things right. They have to wait until the kids are old enough to search for them.

This happened to a young couple fairly local when social workers went in heavy handed after the mother took one child to the doctor as she had some unaccountable bruises. Even the midwife said she had no concerns about the parents or the other kids.
After they lost these 3, they fled to Ireland and had another son who they have been allowed to keep after more intervention from SWs.

The Head of Childrens Services at the time and who signed off the dreadful forced adoptions was Lisa Christensen who had been married to alcoholic and drug addicted member of the terrorist bombing group, The Angry Brigade. You honestly could not make it up!!

I wish the OP well but wish she had not faced such judgemental comments on here.

With regards to the boys behaviour...this is due to the devastating upset in their life..they hav3 Fathers that Don't care..what a horrid start to life

With regards to your daughter..People don't usually have their children taken away for no reason and it might be about proving to the courts that she is a good parent

Such an horrendous situation. I feel very sorry for you. I don't understand how this could have happened except that at one time Social Services were concerned with keeping children within the family and providing support for the family.

The SWs are overworked. Currently there are 33,100 employed in the UK plus 7,200 agency workers and 7,700 vacancies in the child services section.

Whilst on the whole I support our judicial system and the work they and SW do to keep children safe, it does seem here that a serious misjudgement
has been made and I have zero advice as it seems a big awful mess.

Can you assist your daughter to contact her MP and have the entire looked into again??

I just wish you all luck

Contact centres are very busy so there is not much chance of a change of venue. Social workers do not just snatch children without a reason they have terrible case loads and work hard to help families though it might not feel like it at times . Surely the school is doing something to help the older boy if not contact the head teacher. This must be a terrible situation for you all .

I wish I could offer some help.

I worked with Social Workers for a number of years and I can believe everything the OP says.
For every good social worker I think there are about 10 bad ones.

How did the people organising the contact centre respond to the situation?

JaneJudge

If you are in the UK, you need to insist the older boy is assessed for a EHCP if he hasn't been already. This will give him support at school.

I would ask social services if there are any parenting classes you can attend. The boy isn't being deliberately malicious, he has a neurological condition that he needs support with. That said, your daughter also needs support. Does your daughter not have her own social worker? It all sounds very complex and taking children away from parents because of disability is quite serious discrimination.

They can't insist anything....the aunt has SGO so has PR for the child

JaneJudge, my daughter has a counsellor who she sees on a weekly basis and has been doing for the past 5 years. She was just abandoned by the Social Services who just walked away once their work was done. She was referred for Trauma Counselling but all they could offer after 2 years was a place in a clinic for schizophrenics which was ridiculous. She has been diagnosed with complex PTSD. We pay for the counsellor ourselves.

thank you for all your responses. Yes, I'm in the UK and this situation has been going on since 2016 when daughter was raped by the abusive ex partner, then became pregnant as a result. The pregnancy went horribly wrong and she almost died. She was placed in an induced coma and the baby was delivered 10 weeks prematurely. She spent three months in hospital and whilst she was in there, and the baby was in intensive care, the abuser assaulted her daughter from her ex husband. The daughter reported it to a teacher at school. Social services became involved. Three weeks after she came home from hospital, still barely able to function, social workers came in mob handed with the police, arrested the abuser and snatched the baby out of her arms whilst she was trying to feed him. The children were all given to the abuser's sister.
There followed a year of court appearances when the social worker, a young woman who appeared to be after promotion, managed to turn the case around and suddenly my daughter was the abusive one. I wouldn't have believed that this was possible if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. I couldn't believe some of the things that she said about my daughter.
For those who don't know the system, an SGO is a Special Guardianship Order and SG is Special Guardian.
It is truly an appalling situation, made even worse by the fact that the Guardian for the boys refused to allow any contact and we had to apply for a Child Arrangements Order. When we did, another CAFCASS team assessed all parties and we were horrified to find that the Special Guardian has a criminal record for fraud and assault which somehow was not mentioned in the original case. We also found that the abuser has a criminal record as long as his arm. If my daughter had known that she would never had started a relationship with him in the first place. By the time she had had two children with him, she was really afraid of him and didn't know how to get out. In the end, once the children had been handed over to his sister, he threw daughter out into the street anyway. He is a truly appalling man who has access to the boys whenever he wants. Fortunately we understand that he's not that bothered.
This whole scenario has virtually destroyed our family, apart from putting us in serious debt trying to get the contact sorted.
What to do about the contact visits, though, I still don't know. My daughter only has limited parental responsibility over the boys so she can't organise any intervention for the older boy and the Guardian refuses to communicate with her.

The children were removed from their mum 8 years ago.. it isn't clear whether there have been contact visits in that time. I wonder if they actually want to have contact with their Mum?
You and your husband are in a horrible position trying to normalise this visit and not being able to achieve that.. I wonder if you have contact again whether you could see the elder child on his own and try to ask him what his wishes are..
can your DH be in a separate room with the younger child so they can play a board game in peace.. I really feel for you..

If you are in the UK, you need to insist the older boy is assessed for a EHCP if he hasn't been already. This will give him support at school.

I would ask social services if there are any parenting classes you can attend. The boy isn't being deliberately malicious, he has a neurological condition that he needs support with. That said, your daughter also needs support. Does your daughter not have her own social worker? It all sounds very complex and taking children away from parents because of disability is quite serious discrimination.

Do you have any say in which contact centre you use? Sounds like you could do with a family support worker with experience of children with complex needs to attend contact.
Could you apply to see the boys separately?

Reasonable adjustments/ best endeavours should be made for your Grandson with ASD and ADHD under the Equalities Act. A room without a sink would be a start.

naccc.org.uk/find-a-centre/

Don’t know that this will help if Courts involved. Do the boys not have an Advocate?
Sounds really sad for all involved.