What is the point of having a daughter ?

Rosie51
....no compulsion to take hormones and many don't, and the vast majority of transwomen (note they're always the transgender people mentioned, transmen hardly get a mention) opt to keep their penis and testicles. Some opt to keep their beards too. Alex Drummond a celebrated transwoman psychotherapist doesn't take hormones, sports a full beard, will never have surgery but declares himself a lesbian because he's partnered with a biological woman.

And such people as you describe are not genuinely trans women but, let's be honest, perverted and weird. The problem arises because they have described themselves as trans women and, for reasons I don't understand, have been permitted to do so without everyone else pointing and giggling. The world has gone more than slightly mad when jeering at these charlatans is regarded as a hate crime.

I can't share your opinion of drag artists, either. I have no interest in the Olympics and only glanced at the pictures someone posted on here. Assuming you're correct and these were not transitioning women, so what? I'm a woman and I confess I have laughed at and thoroughly enjoyed many an excellent drag act over the years. I don't feel in any way insulted or demeaned by it; we all know that real women don't behave like that and that's what makes it entertaining.

My post was only an attempt to put in a word for the genuine trans women - and men - out there who just want to get on with their lives out of the spotlight but who, all too often, are being tarred with the same brush as sociopaths, publicity seekers and rapists who are giving them a bad rep.

I don't understand why they've chosen drag queens for this task. Most drag queens are not transitioning and, as far as I am aware, do not wish to. They are gay men who make a living from performing as sexualised parodies of women. The content of their acts are usually very coarse and in many cases far from complimentary to the sex they are portraying. However, that's up to the audience and I've heard some truly vile stuff from hetro male comedians. I'm just baffled as to why drag queens are suddenly being presented as role models or people to be revered.

grannydarkhair

Three different drag queens carried the torch at different times on the route to Paris.
x.com/reduxxmag/status/1816138472308048146?s=12

This second photo perfectly illustrates “Let’s spot the real woman”.
x.com/womenreadwomen/status/1816140657360265536?s=12

They are just a parody.

The fact that the Olympic Committe took them at all seriously is the worrying part of all this.

flappergirl

Men have always worked as drag queens and have become very popular, others have taken on a persona for their performances.

Danny la Rue, Barry Humphreys, Lily Savage.
They didn't pretend they were women, they entertained.

And such people as you describe are not genuinely trans women but, let's be honest, perverted and weird

How are we meant to distinguish between the genuine and the perverted & weird trans-identifing men?

SueDonim

^And such people as you describe are not genuinely trans women but, let's be honest, perverted and weird^

How are we meant to distinguish between the genuine and the perverted & weird trans-identifing men?

I thought that was fairly obvious: anyone sporting a full beard, publicly stating they aren't taking and won't have hormone therapy and has no plans to be surgically altered is one of the weird and perverted - merely a man who wants to call himself by a woman's name and dress in a woman's clothes.

If it's someone with criminal intent who takes a little more trouble over the deception then I agree, it's harder to tell. But it's often hard to to immediately spot any competent fraudster be it a financial con artist or the "psychic" who claims he has a message from your dead mother.

But those bearded people will tell you in no uncertain terms that they are women and anyone questioning that will be labelled with all sorts of horrible names.

I hate to break it to you Scribbles but you would be labelled a hateful transphobe bigot by Stonewall and trans allies. To be trans you merely have to state you are trans, no other action is required. Anyone who questions your identity is a bigot. Anyone who questions your motives is a bigot. Anyone who doesn't 100 % accept your self identification and treat you as one of the sacred caste is a bigot who deserves every abuse levelled at them. I have spare sackcloth and ashes if you don't have your own

I believe there’s a distinction between transmen/women and those who refer to themselves as transsexual. I’ve read first-hand accounts from a couple of the latter and although they take hormones and have had operations on their genitalia they do not describe themselves as transmen/women; they acknowledge that they are, and always will be, biological men/women who experienced such severe body dysmorphia that it drove them to take the drastic action required to become transsexuals. Having lived quiet lives for decades they are now speaking out against the modern transgender movement and in support of women’s rights and safe spaces for women. I applaud them for their bravery because the vilification and abuse they are experiencing is genuinely scary.

Rosie51, in this instance, I'm glad to be a bigot!
All the things you said are the reason I stated the world has gone more than slightly mad and it's about time those of us who know that this self-identification nonsense is exactly that: nonsense stood up and said so.
The friend I spoke of and a number of the other (genuinely) transexual people she knows are horrified by what is happening and the way in which what has been a long, traumatic and painful life life experience for them has been hijacked and made a mockery of for little more than reasons of trendiness or, more sinisterly, sexual gratification.
Anyway, I'll pop round in the morning to borrow the sackcloth and ashes if that's ok?
I don't suppose you've also got a few stinging nettles I can lash myself with? 😆

I found myself sharing a bunkhouse with a transitioning male to female young person last year.
In the morning, this person spent at least half an hour in the bathroom emerging fully dressed, shaved, made up and fragrant and left for breakfast.

I had knocked on the door begging to please just to hurry as several of us were desperate for a pee.

Oh dear, I'm afraid my tolerance levels dropped. Anyway, can someone please explain why the desired image of a woman for transitioning males is more Barbie-doll than mother figure?

Grammaretto, "Anyway, can someone please explain why the desired image of a woman for transitioning males is more Barbie-doll than mother figure?"

Obviously I'm no expert and not a psychologist but I would imagine the stereotypical female image is because, without such glamorous makeovers, transwomen are often still identifiable to some degree as men. Their hands are much larger, they are taller with broader shoulders and they don't "move" like women so they are compensating with cosmetics, hair and clothes.

I suspect they also wish to revel in their new found identity and embrace everything they perceive to be overtly female. Rather like our excitement as teenagers getting our first bra or being allowed to use mummy's makeup for the first time. I'm not trying to be patronising to transwomen but I do think they are exploring and relishing a whole new world.

I don't like the idea of men transitioning into women if I'm honest unless it's a real medical reason for change. We don't hear much about women who transition into men - which is interesting. Why do you think this is?

Athrawes

I don't like the idea of men transitioning into women if I'm honest unless it's a real medical reason for change. We don't hear much about women who transition into men - which is interesting. Why do you think this is?

There are about 2.5 times as many men to women as there are women to men. But men don't seem to worry about it or say much about it

Jackiest

Athrawes

I don't like the idea of men transitioning into women if I'm honest unless it's a real medical reason for change. We don't hear much about women who transition into men - which is interesting. Why do you think this is?

There are about 2.5 times as many men to women as there are women to men. But men don't seem to worry about it or say much about it

Transmen pose little to no problem to men. Transmen don't get to take men's sporting awards, man of the year awards etc A transman has not been chosen to be the 'face' of Gillette or Nike men's sportswear. Transmen usually only get headlines when they do that most female action......... get pregnant and then give birth to a baby. Usually they are much smaller and physically weaker than men so don't pose any physical threat to them. Men aren't referred to as prostate owners, ejaculators, penis havers etc in health campaigns. Men are referred to as men in the Prostate cancer posters, when women are people with a cervix in the cervical screening programs. Transmen just don't impact on men's lives in the way that transwomen do on women's lives.

Not for the first or even the 50th time.. have I wished Gransnet would allow us t have a thumbs up emoticon...

Rosie51

Jackiest

Athrawes

I don't like the idea of men transitioning into women if I'm honest unless it's a real medical reason for change. We don't hear much about women who transition into men - which is interesting. Why do you think this is?

There are about 2.5 times as many men to women as there are women to men. But men don't seem to worry about it or say much about it

Transmen pose little to no problem to men. Transmen don't get to take men's sporting awards, man of the year awards etc A transman has not been chosen to be the 'face' of Gillette or Nike men's sportswear. Transmen usually only get headlines when they do that most female action......... get pregnant and then give birth to a baby. Usually they are much smaller and physically weaker than men so don't pose any physical threat to them. Men aren't referred to as prostate owners, ejaculators, penis havers etc in health campaigns. Men are referred to as men in the Prostate cancer posters, when women are people with a cervix in the cervical screening programs. Transmen just don't impact on men's lives in the way that transwomen do on women's lives.

I was not giving an opinion just an observation.

Of the young people I know 4of the six are female to male transitions .They are all without exception now living the life they. Believe they were meant to have .None of them appear to have had horrific abuse while transitioning,or getting married. Or adopting children .On the other hand both the male to female get ridiculed and abused regularly.That ,in my opinion shows “real women “ in a very poor light.They are still the people they always were ,the very few who commit crimes shouldn,t tar the others .Do you tag ALL men as abusers and rapists because SOME are?

^the very few who commit crimes shouldn't tar the others'

Very true.

The problem is they are the ones who make the most noise, not people like the ones you know, getting on with their lives.

paddyann54

Of the young people I know 4of the six are female to male transitions .They are all without exception now living the life they. Believe they were meant to have .None of them appear to have had horrific abuse while transitioning,or getting married. Or adopting children .On the other hand both the male to female get ridiculed and abused regularly.That ,in my opinion shows “real women “ in a very poor light.They are still the people they always were ,the very few who commit crimes shouldn,t tar the others .Do you tag ALL men as abusers and rapists because SOME are?

Given that transgender people are supposed to be a tiny minority of 0.5% of the population I am amazed that you personally know 6 individuals paddyann. Are they all within Scotland's population of 5.5 million people?

No I don't tag all men as abusers and rapists, but all men are excluded (or should be) from some single sex places because we can't know which are the abusers and which aren't.
In certain situations everyone is subjected to a DBS check, not because everyone is an abuser or has a criminal record but to eliminate those that do. It's called basic safeguarding.

"Real women" are people born female. Nobody can change their sex, it's immutable. Male entitlement often endures even when they decide they are really women, women with male privilege!

On the other hand both the male to female get ridiculed and abused regularly.That ,in my opinion shows “real women “ in a very poor light.
How stereotypical of a trans ally to attack actual females. They never seem to attack males of any description........

It is not the transwomen who use their trans status to commit crimes who ‘tar’ real women. It is just that real women have no way of knowing who is who (ie is the 6 foot muscular person in the changing room with a teenage girl a pervert or a ‘misunderstood’ transwoman?) so mentally group them together as potentially dangerous. We grow up knowing that men are more dangerous than women, because they are. That doesn’t mean that we think all men are bad - just that more dangerous people are male. Transwomen are still male.

Those who suggest that we should have no female spaces- why do you think there are women’s prisons, hostels, hospital wards and changing rooms in the first place? It is not the same as having men-only clubs and making women sit in the ‘saloon bar’. Women want spaces where we can safely be vulnerable (sick, undressed, asleep), to have dignity when we use the loo, change tampons, try on underwear etc, and to know who is touching us intimately (eg in medical settings) before we give consent.

The TRAs (trans rights activists) who scream abuse at women, the male contestants who can’t win against other males so impose themselves into women’s sport, the males who take prizes set up for women (eg in the Arts, where women are underrepresented) are not vulnerable and marginalised - they are taking advantage of the way society always puts the interests of men above those of women, and it is not transphobic to say so.

Given that transgender people are supposed to be a tiny minority of 0.5% of the population I am amazed that you personally know 6 individuals paddyann

I think paddyann said she knows six young people, four of whom are female to male transitions, which is 66.6% recurring of the young people she knows, quite a high percentage.
I'm not sure how young young is but old enough to get married and adopt children.

I'm a bit confused but I think the other two young people are male to female transitions so the total of al, is 100%.

That is quite unusual.

I've met dozens of "young people" through my DC and wouldn't really know (or care) if any have transitioned.

Jackiest

Sago

It’s about men becoming women to dominate our space.
It is sinister and wrong on every level.

Well we do have to admit that we did take over their space back in the 60's. When there were men only rooms in some of the pubs and work was a man's space. I was glad to see men's spaces go and unless there is a very very good reason I am willing to see women's spaces go as well.

Except it is only men disguised as women who are allowed into women's spaces, not all men, and even when mens rooms in pubs etc went, they still had their loos and changing rooms to themselves.