Turning white characters black

Well I know where I’d draw the line.We know that Henry was six feet tall and ginger haired with light coloured eyes.He wasn’t always obese either and cut quite an attractive figure when younger.We know he was intelligent, spoke several languages well , danced and sang well, loved to be out hunting.
It wouldn’t be hard to find an actor who fitted the part today, and in the past the drama with Keith Michell ( think that was the name) did a good job.

Oreo

As long as it’s not ridiculous.

Difficult that.
Where would we draw the “ridiculous” line.

After all, we only have artists and historical records to show that Henry VIII was obese and not particularly good looking.

Think how many people would uncritically watch historical dramas about him if he was played by Idris Elba or Colin Firth or David Tennant or even Eddie Izzard.

Not at all ridiculous?
Or which of those would suit do you think?

Oreo can you let us know why you think it is 'fanciful', 'ridiculous' or 'nonsense' not to match every feature of an historical character to what we think they might have looked like, or is it a case of 'because you say so'?

Ahh well I didn’t know that, so now I do know, I understand why he was chosen. You learn something every day.

I just find something else to watch. There's plenty of choice.

As long as it’s not ridiculous.

They’re all fictional characters so artistic licence can be put up with.

I think it was Grace Bumbry who sang a widely acclaimed Countess Eboli in Verdi's Don Carlos in the early 1980s- no-one mentioned at the time that the historical Countess might have been of Moorish descent (if she was, everyone would carefully have concealed that fact in the 16th century, when she lived, and later when Schiller wrote the play that Verdi adapted. )Unlike Grace Bumbry, who was black and did not let that fact stop her, or feel the need to take a stage name rather than keep a surname that was open to sniggering interpretations.

We were all just impressed by the beauty of Grace Brumbry's singing and acting.

After all, we live happily with Mimis sung by extremely stout women, although both in the opera and in the book, she dies of consumption, with Juliets who are not fourteen, nor are their Romeos seventeen and so on.

So yes, it can be annoying when a character in a play, opera or film does not fit with the mental picture each of us have of that character, but it is their portrayal that matters.

Lathyrus3

Mt61

Ben Kingsley played Gandhi, I remember enjoying that film. I think though if he had been blacked up to play say, Mandela, I don’t think it would have been right somehow.

Ben Kingsley was dual English /Gujarati heritage so I’m not quite sure what your point is?

Yes.

Ben Kingsley' father:
Rahimtulla Harji Bhanji was born on November 8, 1914 in the coastal city of Mombasa, Kenya. His family had roots in Jamnagar, a city in the Indian state of Gujarat.

Ben Kingsley is a stage name. His birth name is Krishna Bhanji.

Mt61

Ben Kingsley played Gandhi, I remember enjoying that film. I think though if he had been blacked up to play say, Mandela, I don’t think it would have been right somehow.

Ben Kingsley was dual English /Gujarati heritage so I’m not quite sure what your point is?

Anne Boleyn was white and it’s fanciful nonsense to portray her as anything other than that.

Yes, sensible people do want history to be as close as possible to facts and what actually happened.😄

Mt61

I like history to be true to history. I don’t think for one minute that Anne Boyleyn was black- I never watched that drama because of that. Nothing to do about racism.

I am as sure as I can be that she wasn't (as I said upthread, if she had been Elizabeth would have had mixed heritage, which she clearly didn't) but I just don't think it matters.

What does wanting history to be true to history mean? Sticking with AB, she has been reported to have had six fingers on one hand and a third nipple. She (and Elizabeth after her) had so many enemies with an interest in her being seen as a witch, which was not remotely far-fetched back then, so a case can be made for assuming that to be nonsense. OTOH, people do have anomalies like that, and in the days before routine operations would deal with them they would have been more common. We don't know. How would you make her portrayal in a drama 'true to history' there?

Anything that has not been written down is guesswork. Politics was ruthless and there were numerous factions - Catholic and Protestant, various claimants to the succession and more. How far can we trust what was written when people had so much to gain or lose by telling lies? Most people couldn't write, so only official records exist (alongside a few letters and personal papers) and they are not concerned with anything other than official business.

Various explanations for events and behaviour have come along as knowledge has expanded, but much is guesswork. Did Henry have syphilis, Kells Syndrome, NPD, blood poisoning, and were any of those things responsible for his behaviour? Did Anne have sex with her brother? Did she love Henry, or just want to be Queen? We don't know - how can we?

Anything to do with people's relationships and feelings was, as it is now, for them to know and others to wonder about. There have probably always been those who think they know people's motives ('she only did that because. . .' or whatever) but probably then, as now, they are mostly projecting their own outlook onto others. We just don't know, but that's where storytelling comes in.

If we want History to be a series of 'facts' such as a list of battles, monarchs, plagues and legislation it would, IMO, be dry as dust. Most people prefer stories, even in textbooks. Those watching drama or reading historical fiction know they are getting stories. If they honestly believe that everything from whether someone loved someone else to what people really looked like outside of very stylised portraits of the rich (and the painters wouldn't get paid if the patron wasn't happy with the result) is 'true', they are fooling themselves.

Ben Kingsley played Gandhi, I remember enjoying that film. I think though if he had been blacked up to play say, Mandela, I don’t think it would have been right somehow.

Aveline

I remember being rather taken aback by a magazine illustration of one of my stories having a black character. I certainly hadn't written that but obviously it was editorial policy to change the ethnicity of my character. Hmmmm. I don't sell my stories there any more.

Had you written that he was white?

Aveline

A slight change of topic but why is it OK for black people to portray white characters as written but absolutely not OK the other way round? The excellent situation comedy 'It ain't half hot mum' is no longer shown as, in it, an Indian character is acted by a white man.
The whole programme is very good. A Royal Artillery concert party in Burma during the war. Very accurate according to my late Dad who was there.

He wore dark make up, have you seen a black actor with white make up on? He did a horrible send up of an Indian accent. So unless you see say Denzel Washington with white make up and a fake send up of say a Glasgow accent it really isn't the same thing.

I like history to be true to history. I don’t think for one minute that Anne Boyleyn was black- I never watched that drama because of that. Nothing to do about racism.

What did having the character being black have change in the story?

I remember being rather taken aback by a magazine illustration of one of my stories having a black character. I certainly hadn't written that but obviously it was editorial policy to change the ethnicity of my character. Hmmmm. I don't sell my stories there any more.

Yes but not by white actors which is my point.

Where it doesn’t matter, which is in most dramas and comedies then it doesn’t matter and black and Asian characters are well represented.

Aveline
I don’t know about the programme you mention but today any black Asian or any other ethnicity will be played by an actual black or Asian character.Which is only right, as the days of ‘blackface’ are over.What I do object to is the rewriting of books and dramas into showing a white character as black which is usually historically wrong.It doesn’t happen the other way round, no white character is ever inserted into a drama where the character was intended to be black or Asian.

A slight change of topic but why is it OK for black people to portray white characters as written but absolutely not OK the other way round? The excellent situation comedy 'It ain't half hot mum' is no longer shown as, in it, an Indian character is acted by a white man.
The whole programme is very good. A Royal Artillery concert party in Burma during the war. Very accurate according to my late Dad who was there.

Yes, read all of them, they’re great.
CJ Sansom is a wonderful writer and not just the Shardlake series either.

I'm going to have to read the books.