RIP Baby Star Hobson

I agree with Lesley.
Others are free not to, of course.

I cannot agree with Lesley60

I agree absolutely with you Lesley.

But what is the answer to ensure justice for the children in these vile cases mumofmadboys?
Along with many others, I hope the evil, evil examples of humankind have a life of living hell in prison but why should it be the case that we rely on ad hoc punishments doled out by other inmates to ensure the full horror of their crimes may or may not filter through?
It is deeply unpleasant to think about ways to punish another human being but it's surely something we have to face up to when it's the torture and murder of tiny children?

Apologies for time delay - I agree with Lesley60 too

This is too horrendous for words. What that poor little mite had to endure at the hands of this brute, doesn’t bear thinking about. I hope when she gets to prison the inmates hit her everyday! I could smack her horrible evil face. Poor defenceless child. What was her mother thinking? Those poor relatives who alerted people about what was happening. If that had been my grand daughter I think I would have kept her at home and not let her go. But the law would probably have arrested me! All these social workers etc should be proud of themselves for being notified and not doing anything. So sad. RIP Baby Star. X

I couldn’t agree to execution of any kind, but understand totally why people would want it. To be honest...it’s too easy for the perpetrators. They should live out the rest of their lives...until death and not before....in jail, taking whatever is thrown at them.

If anything were to ever come out of such horrors, it would be for the perpetrators, during their time in incarceration to try and understand their own lack of empathy and why they behaved in such a vile way to a defenceless baby/child. I often wonder when I read about the horrors on the mean streets of London, when one kid stabs another fatally, in some sort of initiation nonsense, "do you even realise what you've done? you have taken a life for no particular reason, is there anything more serious than killing another person, just snuffing their life out" Possibly that was imbued in many of us when we learnt about the ten commandments, not that I'm saying religion has to play a part in shaping morality. I do however wonder about the background of the murderers in both these recent cases, it does pose the question as to why they seem so disengaged from any sort of empathy and is it possible there are those who are devoid of those feelings altogether? I guess so, because that's the definition of a psychopath and I doubt whether they could ever be rehabilitated, The concerns around Colin Pitchfork do rather illustrate that some people need to stay locked up forever.

I also wonder whether in the case of Frankie Smith did her low IQ affect her reasoning to such an extent, the malign influence of her partner overrode any protective instincts she may have had. Experts did suggest that she was very susceptible to being dominated and completely lacking in any sort of judgement. I also think immaturity is a driving factor in her case and also the one of the girl I read about in Brighton, lets face it some of us take a long, long time to grow up and at 18 I remember my main focus was me, but then I'd no more contemplate being a mother then, than take to bungy jumping. I know I would never have been ready for such an overwhelming responsibility, I think unfortunately some may think being a parent will define them as being "grown up" and the reality of dealing with a dependent child is about as far away from their expectations as it could possibly be. That's not to say that some teenage mothers cope admirably nevertheless conversely some won't, and will need the perpetual support of others, preferably the extended family. I don't think Frankie Smith should ever have been allowed to remove Star from the happy family set up she was in before she shacked up with Savannah Brockhill, both their behaviours were a cause concern from the start. Frankie like most girls of her age wanted to go out drinking and Savannah had already shown her true colours by beating Frankie up several times before she set about that defenceless baby. Boy was great grandad right when she said she had descended from the bowels of hell!

I don't believe I'd want to live in a society where retributions such as lethal injections and forced sterilisations for say low IQs are thought to be the answer. Neither do I want soft options for people who commit such horrible crimes. I just wish grandparents and other extended family were taken a bit more seriously and not marked down as malicious meddlers and when the first concerns become apparent, more often than not they have more intuition and knowledge as to what's actually going on than anyone else.

I absolutely agree Savannah should have a long prison sentence. I cannot condone bullying within prisons by other prisoners. I feel sorry for Holly to be honest. She is very young, probably immature and of very low IQ and became dominated by an older, stronger woman. She didn't have any hope of succeeding as a mother. Society as a whole has failed Star and Holly.
I sincerely believe Star is now at peace with God and her sufferings are thankfully over. I read that Holly's father has since committed suicide.The suffering of Star' s extended family must be immense.

The judge said that a low IQ had no bearing on the treatment of Star, from what I heard on the news.
Indeed, a low IQ doesnt6at all have any bearing on the ability to feel empathy.
That is a dangerous and slippery slope to go down.

Good post TerriBull today at 14.44.
An IQ of 70 Is low. People in that range are usually very suggestible and often very good at appearing to understand as well as being agreeable.

The bruise over the side of Star’s face
Is horrific. I can’t understand how any paediatrician could have concluded it to be accidental. The doctor would have been made aware of the allegations made Star’s extended family when he examined her. Toddlers often have additional bruising but the depth snd extent of that facial bruise is shocking and uncommon

It’s emerged that The murderous partner had convictions that are seen as ‘relevant’ in safeguarding. I
Hope the inquiries into these two distressing murders of children leads to investment in children’s Services, including ongoing training for all agencies, preferably in multi agency area teams snd including police. Clinical supervision for safeguarding staff, a move away from the supervision that starts with “when can you close X, I’ve twenty new cases to allocate ASAP”

Very good and balanced posts TerriBull and Iam64. I don’t believe that capital punishment is the answer. It reduces the whole of society to the level of the murderers.
I would not have any difficulty with whole life tariffs, as some people are unsafe to release, and are unable to feel any empathy for their victims. As I understand it, these people are unable to change, and so they will always be a danger to society. But if this were to happen I think the law must be changed. Current laws allow for whole life tariffs to be handed down, but in reality are rarely given, and a mandatory life sentence actually means twenty years, and sometimes the judge gives a minimum term sentence, in these cases 29 and 25 years respectively.

Mumofmadboys. Who is Holly? Star’s mother is Frankie.

Why are you of the opinion that society let down Star and Frankie? Star was let down by her mother and different agencies that should have stepped in. Frankie has only let herself down. I don’t believe she has learning difficulties per se just a low IQ. She had a supportive family from what I’ve read.

Mumofmadboys made a mistake, she used the babysitters name rather than the mothers. She is entitled to believe Starband Frankie were let down by society and to express that view.
An IQ of 70 puts this mother in the category of mild learning disability. Most parents with such a low IQ need support with parenting. They are suggestible and vulnerable to predatory partners. Frankie appears to have been a neglectful parent, who had good family support until S moved in.
What point are you trying to make tickingbird by responding in such a confrontational manner to posters, most recently to madmumofboys.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that such a low iq would indicate a need for support, (if I'm wrong, and the judge did not say that in thiscase it was not a factor) coupled with reports by family, bruises on a child's face and so on, just adds more weight to the belief that Star was most terribly failed by the agencies who should have protected her.

No one seems to be disagreeing with that Miss Adventure. This little girl suffered so much, it’s painful, almost unbearable to hear or read about.
I haven’t read the trial reports, or the Judgement. The Judge will have good reasons in law for her comments. My concern isn’t to disagree with the legal finding, it’s linked to the difficulties agencies face in supporting mothers with low IQ in parenting. The mothers own experience of parenting, the kind of family support available are important. The key though is empathy. Low IQ doesn’t mean no empathy but it can mean low coping thresholds, vulnerability to abusive partners and tendency to agree when you dont understand

I am going to admit now that I haven't read the whole thread but I imagine there was no support for those with mild/moderate learning disabilities during the pandemic or even before or even now afterwards. We were all aware what was going on with respect to services, some of you even voted for it

Yea, I think the main thing is to remember that all of us are stunned and angry that this happened, without knowing all of the facts (will anyone, ever, other than those resonsible?)

We all being our own thoughts to the situation, and they are all slightly different.
The main thing is that everyone agrees, this should never have happened.

Iam64. I’m sorry if that post came across in a confrontational manner; it wasn’t intended.

I asked the question why momb’s felt society had let them down as I’m genuinely interested in why she feels that’s the case.

Unfortunately, it is often the case that single mothers, often very vulnerable, are targeted by those who have ulterior motives.

The main thing is that everyone agrees, this should never have happened.

Yes indeed.

Sorry I got the name of Star's mum wrong. I do feel society let this family down. As the saying goes, it takes a village to raise a child. This poor little girl seems to have been missed despite a number of opportunities. It should have been known that this baby was with a mum with a low IQ and there should have been more surveillance by health visitors. Did neighbours report any concerns? It is up to everyone to watch out for child abuse

Thanks Mmob, I expect you know that like social workers and midwives, health visitors have huge case loads. We need to invest and redevelop the good multi agency work that was the aim pre-austerity.
The timelines reported in the press don’t include any referrals by neighbours so far as I’m aware. I agree with you, it’s up to everyone to be alert to child abuse

I was a GP in the area in West Yorkshire where this incident took place. I know the pressurea on the services. My DH, when he was a vicar, reported a child to SS who there was a lot of concern about within the area we lived in. He assumed it would be an anonymous report. A SW went round to the home and said Rev MMB has expressed concern about x. A bit later my DH had a very angry boyfriend at the door behaving in a threatening manner. Doesn't encourage anyone to protect children at risk. My DH contacted SS to complain but was told we are open and honest about who reports people. Several years later child concerned was in care of extended family and tragically mum died a drug related death.

Another awful case this morning. A man convicted of manslaughter and child cruelty for killing his partner's disabled three year old daughter because she wouldn't eat her lunch. 11 years. RIP Jessica.