Whatever happened to grammar and spelling?

When I taught in the Bristol area in the 70's, the children of the real locals used to write the extra 'l' commonly added in the spoken dialiect - windowl, ideal, 'our Glorial's got diarrhoeal in Africal'. Some also wrote 'I bist'.

I recently realised that textspeak is nothing new. I was given some letters written by a distant relative who was an eminent Victorian explorer and botanist. Every letter was full of abbreviated words.

Another time when space was at a premium, I think, gadabout. In Jane Austen's time people used to write one way across a sheet of paper for a letter and then write across the writing so as to get as much as possible on one sheet of paper.

I've just found out that Bags is a maths teacher. So if this comment is off the wall, I'm sure she'll put me right!

If Level 4 is the average standard, and that includes the broad middle range of pupils, perhaps 50%, presumably there will always be 25% who achieve a higher level than this and 25% who do not achieve this level. It's the normal curve of distribution. If you have an average, then some will be above and some below.

Or is this too simple and I'm missing the point?

Thanks for making that point, Mice. I have always wondered about the mathematical awareness of politicians (and journalists) who get in a lather about x% of children not reaching the average level for their age group.

Level 4 is not an average, MiceElf; it is an expectation for pupils leaving primary school. Having said that it was not set in a very scientific way and wasn't norm referenced. Here is Level 4 for writing.
"Level 4
Pupils' writing in a range of forms is lively and thoughtful. Ideas are often sustained and developed in interesting ways and organised appropriately for the purpose of the reader. Vocabulary choices are often adventurous and words are used for effect. Pupils are beginning to use grammatically complex sentences, extending meaning. Spelling, including that of polysyllabic words that conform to regular patterns, is generally accurate. Full stops, capital letters and question marks are used correctly, and pupils are beginning to use punctuation within the sentence. Handwriting style is fluent, joined and legible."
As you can see it is not just a minimum standard and would challenge quite a lot of writers. If you look at the higher levels, you will see lots about purpose and audience. I think it was about 85% of pupils who got Level 4 this year (haven't got the data to hand.) Girls have always outperformed boys by quite a lot, but the gap closed this year. The Level 5s were also much higher than last year.

My goodness! If 85% of pupils were able to achieve that standard the teachers deserve a bankers' bonus.

I suspect that many our politicians would be hard pressed to do that.

A question. Why wasn't it norm referenced and who wrote that description?

As for girls outperforming boys, haven't they always worked harder and been able to take a long term view, unlike many boys for whom short term satisfaction is more important? Not that that's a scientific view either, just my impression.

I think mamie's information is what you were after, elf. Yes?

Golly, it was a long time ago. The Level Descriptions are part of the National Curriculum, certainly amended by Dearing in 95 and maybe again later? Help please Nanaej or anyone else who remembers! A lot of people were involved, teachers, advisers and inspectors. I was involved in writing some of the stuff for ICT level descriptions. I am not sure why it wasn't based on norms, but I think it was an aspirational target. Here are Levels 5 and 6 which are the expectation for 14 year olds.
"Level 5
Pupils' writing is varied and interesting, conveying meaning clearly in a range of forms for different readers, using a more formal style where appropriate. Vocabulary choices are imaginative and words are used precisely. Simple and complex sentences are organised into paragraphs. Words with complex regular patterns are usually spelt correctly. A range of punctuation, including commas, apostrophes and inverted commas, is usually used accurately. Handwriting is joined, clear and fluent and, where appropriate, is adapted to a range of tasks.

Level 6
Pupils' writing often engages and sustains the reader's interest, showing some adaptation of style and register to different forms, including using an impersonal style where appropriate. Pupils use a range of sentence structures and varied vocabulary to create effects. Spelling is generally accurate, including that of irregular words. Handwriting is neat and legible. A range of punctuation is usually used correctly to clarify meaning, and ideas are organised into paragraphs."

You can see why I get cross when people say that pupils don't understand different registers or genres!

I certainly can! And I must say I have no problem with high aspiration, but there really is a great deal of ignorance about what all these levels and standards mean.

A clear concise readily accessible guide would help. And it should be compulsory to learn it by heard for those who make wild assertions unsupported by knowledge and evidence.

But, I still ask, surely there will, by the very nature of humanity, be those who are very bright and those who struggle, and some with a disability. Surely it is not sensible to have a expectation for those children if they are unable to reach it?

It seems like setting someone up to fail if they don't reach the expected standard.

I think what sometimes gets overlooked (especially by the press and politicians) is that this is not about pass or fail. They will very often assume, for example, that children who haven't reached Level 4 at 11 are illiterate, but this is not true at all, and Level 1 or 2 can be a real achievement for some pupils. It is complex, difficult and open to criticism as a system for measuring performance, but I think it does give us some guidance and is better than a one-off exam. Of course, not all children will reach the levels expected and schools work immensely hard to improve the performance of under-achieving groups. The key measure is really about progress and this is what we need to judge for pupils and schools.
I don't know how you could have a simple guide to be honest, but I do think politicians, press and public have to trust the professionals a bit more.

I enjoy writing on these pages!
I'm aware that sometimes I go a bit mad with the !!!, but it shows emphasis so far as I'm concerned.
I'm hopeless at colons and semi colons, not knowing where they are appropriate. I usually forget all about them!

I write a lot of poetry, for various reasons, and try to remember to use the spell checker. I used to be a good speller, but now find I make more mistakes.
You bright Ladies are using descriptive grammatical terms I'v never heard of - but then ,I never went to "grammar" school!!

Thank you for letting me enter your "world".

I find a lot of the "teacher talk " goes over my head ,as I haven't a clue about split infinitives,mass nouns and all the other phrases,but at least knowing they exist I can then go and google and find out the meanings,so my very basic education is being stretched,you are never too old to learn ...so thank you

Nellie - you write vividly and we all enjoy your posts, so please don't worry about the finer points of grammar.
I think it would be great shame if anybody was discouraged from posting here because they were afraid of making mistakes. We might all lose out on some very interesting, amusing or informative posts.
Whilst I cannot help noticing wrong spellings or grammar, I don't let it influence my opinion of people. My sister often uses the 'wrong' tense, such as 'I have wrote to him' but I know what she means and she is not a professional wordsmith - I do think journalists, sub-editors and proof readers should get things right.
When we moved out of Salford during the war, to a tiny village near Bury, we were delighted by the way the 'locals' spoke - my brother was stuck up a tree and was asked 'Can you not get down?',where we would have said 'Can't you get down?' Long live regional accents, dialect and usage!

I quite agree; long live diversity.
I also think it would be very nice if everyone; politicians, journalists, business people and families made a real effort to celebrate the brilliant things that children and young people can do, rather being so negative and pessimistic about them.

Well said Mamie! We hear so much more of the bad things that happen.
It being considered more "newsworthy"!

Petallus and Nellie.

I am so with you both.

Surely if you have never been taught the correct way of written or spoken grammer then you will never know if you are writing or speaking to the standards others would like to see adhered to!. How could you?

I am sure I make lots of mistakes but I would not know and therefore I could not possibly make it an issue to get upset by anything others write. I would like to be assured of my grammer and I take my hat off to those who are confidently assured by their use of grammer. Perhaps there should be an acceptance that we were all educated to different levels and we all do our best.

It's the thought behind the posters thread not their spelling and grammer that counts and it could put some off if it was an issue. I am sure that will not happen though.

I think there is already an acceptance that we have members from every type of background and educational experience. The only thing we have in common is that we are (mainly) grandparents who like to share our experiences on the internet. I don't think anyone should have to apologise for either their lack of higher education, or, conversely, to feel guilty if they have enjoyed the privilege (which was free for most of us). We us use the language and ideas with which we are familiar and comfortable - it does not mean we consider ourselves in any way superior. In fact, it would be patronising if we were to avoid using certain words or figures of speech in case any other member felt intimidated by it.

I feel accepted here and if I make a faux pas it is the content of that invites comment not the way that I have expressed it,I am envious of those who have had higher education,it was not something that was offered to me,or even the opportunity as I had to be earning from 15,didn't know colleges existed had heard of university but not how you got there,obviously the sec modern route was not the way forward,I enjoyed school and was in the top form,would love to be able to quote from so and so,and debate ,but I am learning from those here who post and if I don't know or want to find out I google or look it up.

Littlenellie -it is never too late to learn! I did go to grammar school and got good 'O' levels, but I didn't go into the Sixth Form, but was trained as a secretary by the CWS (Co-op). I was married at 18 and had two children before I finally made it into higher education. Nobody in my family had ever been to university and there was no expectation that I would. My daughter also left school as soon as she could (against my wishes) and had six children before taking an OU degree. My oldest grand-daughter had a very disturbed teenage and left school with no qualifications whatsoever. She now has two little girls and is studying for an OU degree in Law.
Many of my daughter's friends left school with minimum qualifications, got married, had children, some got divorced, then they took access courses at the local Further Education College and went on to get degrees and good careers.
You won't always be as weighed down with caring for other people as you are now - then you can spread your wings and soar into the big, blue sky of education! With your gift for words and acute intelligence, you would love it.

nellie I don't think you even need to think in terms of making a faux pas. I think of gransnet as just friends chatting and the important thing is that we feel free to communicate our thoughts and feelings. I certainly don't always speak using perfect grammar nor do I want to have to worry that all my posts are grammatically perfect. I love your posts - your personality and humour just shine through!

Nellie You have a natural talent for expressing yourself beautifully. You have a super sense of humour. You are a kind and caring individual. Honest to goodness girl, what more do you want!

Like Greatnan and some others, I have taught English. I taught a wide range of mature students, a few of them well over pensionable age. Every one of them was there because they wanted to be there, unlike so many disaffected teenagers, which some of them had been in their younger days. The experiential learning they already had was beyond price. They brought so much to the understanding of the literature we studied that I often felt quite humbled by the depth of their perceptions.
It's not always about 'getting things right'. 'Good' writing is about being clear and expressing yourself well. I don't read posts with a view to getting out my (metaphorical) red pen; I read them to learn about you and be informed about things I know nothing about - and often to be entertained. As nightowl says, it's like friends chatting and you don't stop in the middle of a chat and tell your friend her grammar's not up to scratch...

anno

Thank you all so much to learn so little time,feel like a dry sponge wanting to soak up all knowledge,will be working towards some vocational qualifications, I am looking forward to that

Good luck for tomorrow, nellie!