Employing someone?

We have carers from the nhs and find them brilliant , non moaning and cheerful , never speak about other clients . On the other hand we employ sitters from an agency who moan about wages and speak about other clients who employ and pay them privately , and asking us to do the same , we haven't done so because the agency send another sitter if the first isn't available and of course the checks and insurance are there . The agencies do pay peanuts but we do give the girls extra at set times where appropriate

I phoned ACAS and was informed that for the very limited number of hours a week the cleaner was required ( average 3-4) she would be regarded as self employed and I would not need to pay NI, holiday pay etc.
Please let me know if I am wrong, anybody out there!
Have been employing cleaners for years but it is only with the latest change-over that all these extra payments are mentioned

I agree with you MrsJamJam
The agency would probably ask why your mother no longer wanted assistance and would ultimately find out that these ladies were getting cash in hand.
They wouldn't be paying tax and I personally don't agree with that.
I have, since retirement, worked as a PA and was paid into my bank account and paid all taxes. My colleague, who worked the other days of the week, insisted on being paid by cheque with the payee name omitted.
The lady was from Thailand and lived in a house which was organised by a 'boyfriend' and he cashed the cheques. It's funny how the 'private' carer economy often operates in this underhand way. I met a lot of it and there is a strong grapevine so you can often meet the same people in different counties hundreds of miles apart, as I have.
Agencies give peace of mind.

My sister has carers for her MS.We live different ends of the country but when I’ve visited her and the carers are there they do seem to have formed a very close bond and discuss personal things so I’m not surprised wages has come up. However I would be a tad suspicious of there reasons for bringing this up. I would presude your mum to steer well away from paying cash it will create many issues and as others have said there’s no back up or support when there free lance and they will have no one to answer to.Dont be riled by some people on here majority of GNS are lovely helpful people.

Usually when using staff via an agency you have to pay a hefty penalty if you then poach that person to work for you direct. It’s usually in the agreement with the agency

Having been a carer, firstly it is against the rules of any agency for careers to discuss their financial situation, it leaves the door open for accusations of seeking gifts, and in many cases that is what it is. It can be tricky, you do form friendships but this was always a big no no.

If she employs them directly, she is their employer, which means she responsible for all the statutory responsibility of any employer, checking Right To Work, tax, NI, enrolment in a pension scheme and making a contribution, she will have to retain their P45, do annual tax reporting, pay employer NI contribution, maintain the required records, have employer liability insurance pay sick and holiday pay in accordance with a contract of employment, then there could be maternity leave, long term sickness if it happened.

It’s a lot of responsibility and would cost her, as the agency introduced the career there would probably be an introduction fee to be paid to the agency. It’s not as simple as giving them cash in hand every week, which might be what they are after. That gets the employer in trouble.

The big concern is the career discussing their finances, they should not put that concern on their clients, even if the client starts the conversation. It’s not fair that your mum has been given this dilemma. Personally I would have a gentle word with the carer and ask them not to discuss their finances with your mum, or have a talk to the agency, I would worry that they are looking for financial gifts.

Mrsjam jam, has someone in the family signed an agreement with the care agency? If so, there's usually a clause about not employing the carers privately. So there could be "legal" problems if your mum tries to do this?

Your mother is paying above the odds for certain care when she needs it. If she puts herself in the hands of others she is at their mercy. The first thing they might do is report her for acting illegally or threatening to do so if she doesn't up their rate. At the very least they will want holidays and may well be ill with no obligation to provide cover. These carers will have a pension aspect to their pay. Will your mother want to pay that? And their employer's tax and NI?

Like your mum mine was completely with it well into her 90's and had the cleaners whole life story in very short order. They do start to look on them as friends. I think you can only stick with what is easiest for you as you are the main carer in all this. Sit down and explain carefully everything that your mum would have to do to change her help over and what might happen if she did, you could agree with her its a lovely idea but could disadvantage her helpers in the end, hopefully you can fend this one off.

I don't agree redicalnan. Where you there? Do you know who started the conversation or what was said? My own mother, because she lives in a very small world, will pick up on anything to have a conversation with others and her carers are a big part of her life. She would not see empathising in an over-the-garden fence chat as in any way crossing any boundaries. Perhaps your experience with your Mum is not like that but I can assure you it is not unusual for those mums I have come across as I have met fellow carers.

I am sorry that SS have not been more supportive MrsJJ. The service should be there for all. Let's hope we see some changes in the future.

If the careers want to go self-employed and undertake to pay their own tax etc. then it is up to them. Plus of course their employer will pay them holiday pay and a contribution to their pension which they will not get as self-employed workers.

The risk is that the person will not meet the threshold for self-employment that HMRC set - it is quite defined. Bogus self-employment is something that they have been cracking down on recently. Therefore the elderly person might find themselves regarded as the employer and be held responsible for:
- tax and NI collection
- employers NI
- paid holidays
- statutory sick pay
- maternity leave (where applicable)
- possibly pension contributions

A lot of people who employ nannies etc have found that they have to implement the above

Oh dear. Please beware. This is exactly what happened to my Dad.

When Mum died he got a cleaner from a local agency. Within weeks, she told him she could no longer manage on what the agency were paying her... and would have to leave him. Unless he paid her - a lot more - directly to her.

He did what she wished and paid her directly.

She then told him that one of her gentlemen - and she only worked for widowers - had told her he was going to leave her money in his Will.

She knew how lonely my Dad was. She also knew that most evenings, he would pop up the road to his local for a pint.

She turned up there too.

He then told us he was planning to leave her £25k in his Will.

At this point I became concerned. Not about the money - that was his to do with as he wished - but by the thought that he was being groomed by this woman.

I hadn't a clue what to do - so I phoned the local police. And I'm so glad I did !

The woman and indeed her whole family were well known to the police.

I then phoned our family solicitors... and to my horror, they confided that this sort of thing happens all the time... but families are largely powerless... as no actual crime has been committed.

We never told my Dad. It would have broken his heart. And he never got round to changing his Will.

But as far as I know this woman is still probably plying her trade.

I am very glad that my mother uses a good agency. It has been a lifeline for her and they have been helping her for long enough now that they go out of their way. The woman who runs the agency will go to the hospital with her and write down what the doctor says because she won't remember and when she asked the doctor to he did it on a scrap of paper that she couldn't read. Her favourite carer will take her and not charge if she has to wait a long time.
It sounds as if the carers are using emotional blackmail on her. What protection would she have if they stepped that up if she was no longer using an agency? Would she be able to sack a carer if she ran into difficulty?

I don't see what's wrong with having a personal relationship with the carers to the extent of discussing wages etc? She doesn't have to give them extra, it's up to her. Unless of course she is no longer mentally competent and a relative has power of attorney, in which case it will be that relative's decision.

If the careers want to go self-employed and undertake to pay their own tax etc. then it is up to them. Plus of course their employer will pay them holiday pay and a contribution to their pension which they will not get as self-employed workers. Of the agency is managing them and supplying cover when they are on leave or sick so it is not just ripping off the staff. Your mother would be exposed to unregulated people coming into her home. The idea of giving cash is really not on, then when does it stop? The carers should not be discussing this with clients.

Why not discuss it with the carers? they might be the ones to point out all the pitfalls mentioned before such as insurance, tax etc., and would prefer to remain with an agency that makes life a lot easier for them in some ways.

The carers are at fault to be discussing their own worries with a client. Where are their boundries?

Is there anything to stop Mum giving presents (cash or otherwise) to her very helpful Carers? I know that the likes of hairdressers, waiters, etc. have to account for tips on tax returns and that health Care professionals are not allowed to accept cash tips from patients but surely a 'present' to someone who has become a friend as well as a carer would be OK? With the proviso that there must be no pressure from the Carer.

I presume you would be the one who had to "sort out" any problems if she went ahead with the plan. In your place I think I would get all the necessary leaflets re NI, insurance, tax etc.to show her. Point out that she might break the law if she didn't do everything she is supposed to when employing someone. Remind her that she will have to advertise and interview for another carer should one leave (and her current provider is unlikely to want to help!). And gently suggest that you don't have the time to do all that for her.

If the system is working well at present and there are no money worries, then I would feel just the same as you.

Thank you all so much for the input. It is good to hear of others experience as the lot of the daughter is sometimes lonely, isn't it?! SS were a non starter here, .She did apply for a needs assessment and they came, asked about her income and savings, told her she was not eligible for support (which we already knew!) and suggested she asked Age UK. I hadn't thought of the possibility of getting anyone in difficulty with the Benefits Agency, another potential minefield.

I don't entirely blame the carer. My mother has always been the kind of person who seems to get the most intimate details of anyone's life . She says she is interested, someone else might say nosey! But now she can't get out and about or see people often she is always desperate for conversation. Having wrinkled out all their worries, she then sees her role as providing a solution. She has always been like that and I doubt I will change her now. I just have to continue to play the bad cop to her good cop!

I had made my point Maw; this is not the place to spark controversy.

I was, as I have said, aware that the OP had the money to pay but thought the support she might get worth having.

<sigh>
I didn’t contradict your experiece GG. I said quite clearly I thought OP’s point was not to do with funding.
Can we leave it there?

some someone

Mother's can be stubborn (and some)

Oh merlot it's so good when some says that I do hope it cheers MrsJJ to feel others understand too. Mother's are definitely not always easy.

"If I may just add, if disagreeing with your interpretation is perceived as “ticking you off” heaven help us."

But why did you need to contradict someone else's experience? It is an odd thing to do on this sort of thread. Hardly the spirit of it, I would have thought and not that helpful to the OP. Why not just put you own experience - that's all it needs. All of us who have been through this sort of thing will have a slightly different one, surely. I am sure yours differs to mine but they might both be helpful.