My widowed mother is nearly 90 and lives alone in a McCarthy & Stone retirement flat. I used to take her to the supermarket with me once a week to get her shopping and that was all the contact we really had apart from giving her a lift for blood tests etc.
A few months ago she started struggling to walk which she said was due to breathlessness and rather than me take her to a clinic for warfarin blood tests it was suggested that a nurse visit her to take her blood. At this point the nurses discovered that her legs were swollen and bleeding and she now has regular nurse visits to bandage her legs.
The nurses have raised concerns with me about how she is coping alone. Yesterday a nurse called me as my mother had fallen over and could not get up on her own. Luckily she had not been on the floor for long when the nurse arrived.
The nurse says that she is struggling to take her medicine and there are tablets all over the floor. The flat is in a very dirty condition. There were feces and urine on the carpet in the hall. All she is eating is ham sandwiches and cakes. She never changes her clothes, she is not washing herself or her clothes.
Clearly she needs help but she is refusing to accept any. If a carer were free I might have a chance of convincing her but she definitely will not pay for a carer to come in and she absolutely does not want to go into a home especially as her savings would soon vanish.
She has a total income of about £200 per week and the service charge alone on the flat is over £1,500 a year so I can understand her concerns over money.
My sister has not spoken to her for 40 years. I am trying to help where I can out of a sense of duty as she has nobody else to turn to but I don't have the time or desire to visit more than once per week. That might sound harsh but there are historical reasons why I maybe should have cut contact with her like my sister has done.
The nurse mentioned something about safeguarding, self neglect and social services to me on the phone and also suggested the state of the flat might be causing health issues for other residents in the block too.
I have no idea what safeguarding etc implies or what could potentially happen next?
She does not like the warden who is on site 5 days per week 9-5 and does not want her to come into her flat any more. Does the warden have a right to enter or can she insist the warden stops going in?
The warden told her I should be going over every day cleaning, cooking etc which did not go down well with myself or my mother. She also told my mother that the furniture needed dusting while she was stuck on the floor yesterday.
My mother would rather everyone left her alone once her legs are sorted out and feels the nurses should not be poking about in her kitchen, bathroom or bedroom without her permission. I know she has a right to enjoy private, family and home life without unjustified interference from public authorities but the nurses have a duty of care and need to raise any concerns they have.
I have no idea what to do for the best. I've tried reasoning with her to get a carer but she point blank refuses. She has had a recent test to make sure she has mental capacity and she does so while she might not be making the best decision she does have the power to make that decision.
I applied for the 2 LPOA's recently but as the Attorney I do not want to get pressured into doing something like sending her into a home if that isn't what she wants.
Any advice would be gratefully received. Thank you.
Apparently recording a call is not illegal but the law around publishing it online is murky so I will record it and make a transcript if I need to. Thanks.
I have recently been through this with my elderly father, he too didnt want to pay for any care and insisted that he could manage alone, but it was clear that this was far from true. Like you, l had POA x2 for him, and tried my best to listen to his demands. It became apparent that he was mixing his tablets up and not washing and dressing during the day he was also living of snack foods and biscuits. His GP caught him in a right mess one day when she called to check his routine bloods and wafrin levels. She then refered him to the Memory clinic for assesment as she felt that this was not the behaviour of a full capacity adult in neglecting himself so much.
He was also allocated a social worker who, rather like your Mum, he hated with a pasion.
A Best intrests meeting was set up which l attended, along with his GP, Community matron, Social worker, and a community psychiatric nurse. The outcome was that l either found and employed the carers myself as POA, or Social services would take over and put it to brokerage services at our local council social services office, and a care company would be found to provide Dads daily care. It worked fairly well at first, lovely girls who really worked hard to care for him. He then started being rather abusive to them, not nasty in tye agressive sense of the word, but very inapropiate both physically and verbally, and thought this to be very amusing, which it was clearly not! He then had a couple of bad falls, and just before last Christmas, he ended up.in hospital after splitting his head and forearm open badly as he fell. A best intrest meeting was then called pre discharge, repoets obtained from the proffestionals involved, and a letter of withdrawal.of services had also been received from the Care agency brokerage due to Dads behaviour towards their carers. The outcome was that either l had to find him a care home place of my choice as POA, or Social services would act in his best intrest and place him.in a home wherever they had capacity, and l wouldnt have a say.
It was a horrible situation to be in. Dad feared the idea of any care home, kicked up badly and did everything he could to prevent even going to visit one. In the end, l had to sign a form to take away his liberty to return home, and he was discharged by Ambulance from the ward straight to a local care home which we knew well as a family, with an outstanding care quality commision rating, a lovely place.
It took a few weeks for Dad to settle, he can still be a real handful with the staff at times, hes still quite 'with-it' and can create havoc with the security systems in the home, having been an electrician by trade, but the best thing is that hes safe, not lonely, well looked after, and now more settled and happy.
but in this case the OP does not have POA, and when she does it will not be effective unless and until her mother is deemed by a qualified person to lack capacity to make decisions.
i also disagree with the person who said that OP will not be allowed to visit her mother in her flat.
there is a specific exception in the govt guidelines, for people assisting vulnerable people.
OP, have you tried contacting your/her local Carers' Centre, sometimes called princess royal centre, for advice. i know you don't want to be her carer, but they can often be useful sources of information, and know how the local area operates. also Age UK, but again they vary greatly by area.
do you and your mother live in the same local authority.
i think it is appalling that a nurse told you that about sepsis.
if she really thought your mother had sepsis, then she would be highly negligent not to send her immediately to A &E.
it sounds like a load of old moody.
true, if she lives in squalor, there is a risk that that may develop, but it can develop in a perfectly clean person.
@welbeck thank you so much for all your replies. I know this thread/topic is extremely long so many people will not have read all of it.
My Mum is widowed and has two children namely myself and my sister. She has not spoken to my sister for about 40 years after a disagreement. When Dad died 16 years ago she moved into a retirement flat to be closer to myself and her grandchildren but I did not envisage this scenario that I now find myself in. She used to live an hour's drive away (40 miles) but now it is 10 minutes and we are in the same local authority.
For brevity I will just say I haven't had the best relationship with my mum over the years but I feel a moral obligation to help her out and that is what I have been doing for the last 16 years by taking her shopping once per week while she was in reasonably good health.
Suddenly her health has deteriorated and everyone including mum seems to be putting pressure on me to sort things out. I am not in any way her carer and I do not want to be. Suddenly I find myself having to try and deal with nurses who are lying to me, social services putting me under pressure, a warden who seems to think she has authority over me and so on.
The warden at the flats where she lives told me in no uncertain terms I had a duty of care to look after her in a very nasty phone call to me. I now avoid her by only visiting the flat outside the warden's 9-5 hours.
The nurse who was visiting to bandage mum's legs kept calling me 2 weeks ago before she went into care. There seemed to be a concerted effort between the nurse and social services to push her into a care home against her will.
The nurse told mum it would not cost her anything. She also told her it would only be for 1-2 weeks. She called me and told me that if mum did not go into a home that same day then she could die of sepsis that night, all alone in her chair. This call was taken on hands free in my car with my 2 kids listening and really upset them as they thought their Gran might pass away that night.
When I asked whether hospital might be the best place for her if she was in such a serious state and likely to die in the next few hours I was told that due to coronavirus hospital would be a bad place to send her and I would not be allowed to visit and she could die alone in a hospital bed that night - so basically continued emotional blackmail.
I then had some lady from social services calling me up piling extra pressure on me to force her into a home. She asked whether she could tell my mum that I had said a care home would be best for her as mum would listen to me? I objected as I had not said that and thought that mum was being tricked into going into a home against her wishes.
The social services lady then told me that she was "concerned" that I was applying for LPOA which to me suggested blackmail - ie make your mum go into a home or we will object to your application for the LPOA. I have no proof of this unfortunately.
When the social services lady called me again to say that it was too late to get mum into a care home the same day I asked her about the nurse's comments about her being in danger of dying that night, "all alone in her chair". She called the nurse then called me back and miraculously the life or death scenario had suddenly changed - she did not have sepsis (but it could happen very quickly).
I am sorry for this elongated reply again. This is the only place I seem to be able to vent my frustrations and it does seem to help being able to share my feelings. I'm not doing it for attention etc. I think I might call the Samaritans tomorrow to let of steam as I feel so down right now.
Hi sunny, I’ve sent you a private message as I don’t really want to share too much of my personal situation here.
Best wishes ?
is there a local advocacy service where you live.
it's often called advocacy in [name of local authority].
they can assist / intervene for vulnerable people in their dealings with public bodies, council, NHS etc.
of course their activities may be severely restricted in the present circumstances.
i can well believe the bad experiences you have had yourself with some of these. sometimes they just want to shuffle another case out of their tray. they do not always act in good faith; but don't bother complaining, it's a closed shop.
i wish you all the very best. i think it speaks volumes for you that even though you have not been close to your mother, yet you try to stand up for her, and resent her being lied to.
sunny123, I'm well aware of the dodgy tactics employed by social workers and nurses in an overworked and stressed out working environment. However, I do believe that they have your mum's best interests at heart.
You want to defend her right to choose. The reality is, though, that she can't look after herself. You can't look after her either and nobody should expect you to.
The safest place is probably a care home. Very few people would choose to live in one. Think how you'd feel about it.
We lied to our mother. We gave the impression that the family were paying. In fact, that was suggested. There was absolutely no way I could afford my third of £1, 250 a week! Only one sibling (the one who who suggested it) could.
Mum had no need to know that her lifetime savings were vanishing and her house was being sold. It would only have distressed her to know the truth.
She had Pension Credit and full Attendance Allowance as she was paying full fees. She was officially a 'temporary' resident, there for recuperation. You can be temporary for a full year and there are advantages, so don't agree to any permanent status.
Yes, it's a horrible, upsetting situation for all involved. Stay (outwardly) cool and calm, be positive around her. She may decide to leave and get home - but, if you help her, there will only be further problems. Please accept the reality and try to persuade her to stay for now.
So sorry you have this problem and at a difficult time too Sunny123.
It seems to me that your Mum needs a full geriatric assessment together with a referral to a continence advisor. Her GP can arrange this. Mum's double incontinence needs investigating and sorting whether she stays in the care home or returns home. As suggested up thread her rectum maybe inpacted with overflow or she may have a prolapse or infection for example. Regarding the urine incontinence she might have a urinary infection or an electrolyte imbalance for example.
If Mum does go home a care package needs to be put in place in advance of her arrival.Sounds as though Mum needs every day help with her daily living activities like bathing, dressing and assistance with her medication.
Thank you all again for the replies and suggestions. I just called the care home and apparently Mum has been asking to go home next week as she cannot afford to stay but they won't let her go if she is unable to look after herself. I was advised to call social services on Monday if I wanted to discuss the matter further.
Mum is now going to have to accept that she has no choice but to stay put or go through an assessment and agree to pay for carers (assuming that moving back home would be suitable for her).
This whole process has been incredibly stressful for me so I am going to take a few days off to focus on my own family life. I won't be calling social services on Monday or answering any withheld numbers I receive for the time being.
Is anyone familiar with Deprivation of Liberty?
Apparently:
The following are all signs that a deprivation of liberty may be unlawful:
Local Authority forcing a person into a care home without consent or against their will
Unlawful Deprivations of Liberty & Damages Awards.
It is a little known fact that an individual who has been unlawfully deprived of their liberty has a right to compensation.
These quotes are all taken from a solicitors website:
www.lindermyers.co.uk/unlawful-deprivation-of-liberty-do-you-have-a-case/
I feel so angry about the underhanded way the nurse and social worker forced Mum into a care home I'm going to contact the solicitors and see if we have a case. They may have had Mum's best interests in mind but that does not make them exempt from acting within the law.
Depriving someone of their liberty is only allowed when it has been decided that there is no other option, and the least intrusive option should always be the goal.
It would have to have been decided that your mum lacked capacity before interfering with her free will.
Yes I would start by suggesting she uses her attendance allowance for care, as that is what it is for.
Your mu will get used to that and then you can gradually expand her help etc.
Gently does it and eventually she will think it is her idea?
You need a deal of patience though.
This may have already been suggested I’m sorry I haven’t time to read all the postings
OP
You feel you have a moral obligation to your mother.
You do not get along with your mother, for a while now.
Your sister doesn't talk to your mother for 40 years+, what was that disagreement?
Dont you see that you, your mother and sister had a healthy relationship?
You are your own person with your right to choose
Your mother is an adult who is mentally fit legally.
The warden and nurses want to pass you the hot potato. It is very common for social services to force families to be responsible for elderly relatives and use less than ethical and legal practices.
At some point, you have to make a choice. You can choose you.
Your mother, as unfit as she is now, she doesn't see it. You cannot make her see it, social worker cannot make her see it, nobody can.
The only way to make others' opinion count more than your own mothers' is to assign her a guardian as she is not legally competent to make decisions for herself.
Even then, you dont have to be her guardian.
Seriously, stop. Stop. Think what you want for your life. Think what makes you happy. Choose yourself.
Your mother seems to be the person who is not happy, not matter how much others do for her.
Things maybe could have been handled more tactfully, but do you think your mum would have been better off with no input from the nurses, social services or the care home?
She says she's going to leave; if the care home phone you to say she's on her way, will that suit you both?
Your mum can't look after herself.
She refuses to pay for any help.
You don't want to do it.
I can't see how legal action will help either of you.
Legal action will help nobody, will just add more unnecessary stress into your situation surely? The comment I made about you not being able to visit your Mother if she self discharged to her own home was based on my understanding that households are not supposed to mix at the moment; if this is incorrect I apologise. Maybe you need to look at things in another way; stop railing against those who have made it possible for your Mother to be in a care home, deprivation of liberty charges are serious and difficult to prove, maybe you should be looking at it from the point of view that these people, perhaps clumsily due to overwork, have seen that your Mother is unable to make decisions regarding her own care? From what I can see, whatever you do will not make your Mother happy, so perhaps make what will make you happy? When she is in a care home, you can rest at night, knowing she is not falling/soiling herself, is eating properly and is safe. I know, I have been through similar, and the relief of knowing that the alarm won't go off, that I won't have to drop everything and drive over at all times of the day and night, is beyond measure. Be kind to yourself, even if your Mother isn't.
Of course legal way is not the way to go now, but last resort.
Op's mother has the right to choose, even if it doesn't benefit her. Even if she soils herself, falls and nobody knows for hours, breaks a hip, etc.
It doesn't mean OP has to engage if her mother doesnt cooperate.
Totally agree with GillT57. Good advice from someone who has been through a similar situation.
My mother had dementia and refused help in her home. We had carers everyday under the advice of SS. She barricaded herself in her home and screaming at the carter to go away. She was sectioned under the mental health act and taken to a mental hospital for assessment. My brother was petrified her money would be spent on her care so he went to the hospital threatening staff he was taking her home as she didn’t want to be there. They then had to do a deprivation of Liberty on my mum for her own protection. This is not taken lightly and done under strict guidelines. It was to stop my mum being removed during her assessments. If they are talking about deprivation of liberty there is something more serious going on than just your mum wanting to go home. I’m wondering if they want to keep her there longer to do a stronger mental capacity assessment.
Please allow me to clarify. I believe my Mum is now in the right place - in a care home.
However, I am the one who hurriedly had to take my children to see their Nan and say goodbye as we were told by a professional nurse that she could die that night if she did not go into a care home immediately. This was an outright lie and caused enormous upset. I did not want to share this personal information before but will now as I am anonymous on this site. My 13 year old daughter self harms and has attempted suicide more than once in the last 12 months. You have no idea how much stress I was put under by being told a lie which my children overheard and could have resulted in my daughter doing something unthinkable that night.
Do the means justify the end in this case?
Having read the page on the solicitors website that I linked to earlier I sincerely believe my Mum was forced into a care home against her will which could be unlawful as it amounts to deprivation of liberty. This is different to DOLS (Denial of Liberty Safeguarding) where someone without capacity is denied their liberty.
I'm no legal expert hence me asking if anyone was familiar with Deprivation of Liberty. I will call the solicitors tomorrow and see what they say. It could be a case of my word against someone else or it could be I am misunderstanding what I have read.
If the representatives of the local authority are acting unlawfully then I believe someone needs to stand up to them. This is not some kind of personal vendetta. It is a matter of principle for me and others might benefit in some way in the future if staff are educated not to act in this way in future.
Sunny, i understand your position and i totally agree with you.
these kind of issues are exactly what an advocacy service would assist with. but they may not be fully active at the moment, and if you can consult those solicitors that would be good.
all the best. PM me if you wish.
Sunny123
Did your 13 y.o. also visit your mother when you were given the false alarm by the nurse?
Honestly, with this new information, I will focus all my energy on your minor kids and 13 y.o.
Your mother is an adult.
Your kids depend on you and your stable mental health.
Have you ever asked yourself how much your mother selfishly disrupts your daily life and your kids' lives?
I just cannot believe that your mother is of sound mind and was living the way she was. I can only go by my experience of people who would come across my mum by short visits or during her shopping trips. To them she was okay and she would make cups of tea for visitors which is automatic habitual behaviour. It was only when you spent more time with her that you noticed other than light conversation she couldn’t retain a meaningful one that would include using her memory. Neighbours would say she was fine but how wrong they were! She became wrapped up in her own needs and demands oblivious to anyone else’s. My mental state was driven to exhaustion with her demands and her social worker said to me we are not concerned about your needs, only your mothers. That’s basically it.
Sunny, I don't understand why your children were all that upset by your mother's impending death. I mean , how can it be your mother is a disagreeable harridan and at the same time commands your children's affections?
What you seek from this discussion is not practical advice but moral support for you to leave the care of your mother to the social and medical services.
You already know you don't want to be remorseful or guilty of neglect. This decision is nothing to do with your poor daughter who harms herself. If you really cannot deal with your mother's problem as well as parenting problems you should tell the person in charge of your mother at the present time.
Maybe OP's kids were upset as they saw their mother's reaction?
Anyway, wrong priorities. Children first, then adults.
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