Surely it’s time for the government to talk properly to the doctors now. This has gone on long enough with no progress. We are losing doctors almost as fast as we train them to other countries where pay and conditions are better. MPs have just had a six thousand pound a year rise. Come on, let’s pay our doctors properly.
Further information
YearNumber of applicants on the reserve list
201645
201725
2018202
2019425
2020260
2021494
2022791
Source: UK Foundation Programme
The govt's plan to introduce apprenticeship training for doctors is IMO, pretty pie in the sky. How on earth are they going to provide training and support for these students if they can't offer F1 places to newly qualified medics?
25Avalon
The thing I have never understood is that doctors and nurses undertake their paid for training with no guarantee of a job afterwards. The dd of a friend trained as a medic with the army to cut costs and then had to work for two years as an army doctor. Why doesn’t the NHS do similarly?
1 Mar 2022 — A total of 791 applicants are on the 'reserve list' for foundation training this year, after not being allocated a placement for FY1.https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/education-and-training/almost-800-medical-graduates-unallocated-for-fy1-places/
Mainly because they have increased the number of undergraduate places without being able to increase the number of F1/F2 training places because there is a shortage of doctors. F1's need to be supervised and trained on the job.
This government has (in the words of Boris) spaffed billions of pounds on private contracts, millions on ex PMs and thousands creating an unelected Foreign Secretary. Doctors should be properly paid.
It isn't that long since people stood on their doorsteps clapping for these doctors and we can't now pay them properly. They deserve better.
Grandmabatty
For Victoria Atkins, on BBC this morning, to refer to junior doctors(surely a misnomer) as 'Doctors in training ' is such an insult and shows contempt. These are experienced doctors of anything up to ten years. Doctors in training are student doctors. That dismissive attitude won't help resolve the situation
Technically she's correct as until they have finished their specialist training, they are still "in training" but they are also the trainers. DD did her 2 years foundation training, then did a year in A&E gaining more experience, then she did 3 years part one training as an anaesthetist, followed by a year as a locum mainly doing intensive care work (the post she was offered to do her next part of training was five hours away from her house and she didn't want to relocate as she was in a relationship, she's now doing her 4 years of part two training. She gets trained by a consultant but she trains and supervises the doctors junior to her. Without being dramatic, every day she is doing procedures that are potentially life threatening if she makes a mistake. It is not for the faint hearted! For what she does, the pay is pretty poor, the conditions of service are poor and trying to keep relationships going when you are working nights, weekends and bank holidays is very difficult. You need a very understanding partner. Fortunately she loves her job but her financial position is very different to most other junior doctors so pay is not an issue for her if it were, I think she's be much less happy.
For Victoria Atkins, on BBC this morning, to refer to junior doctors(surely a misnomer) as 'Doctors in training ' is such an insult and shows contempt. These are experienced doctors of anything up to ten years. Doctors in training are student doctors. That dismissive attitude won't help resolve the situation
Well said foxie.
"Whether anyone chooses to become a doctor, in full knowledge of the pay package, is entirely up to them." GSM
Unfortunately, what today's junior doctors didn't know was the extent to which their salary scales would be diminished during the 7/8 years of their medical degree/ foundation training. Also, unlike other professions they basically have only one employer ie the NHS for the whole of their training period (around 15 years or more) so they can't shop around to find better pay and conditions. DD started her med training in 2012, she already had a first class degree, the salary she gets is equivalent to about 75-80% of what she would have expected to receive at this stage in her training. How on earth could she have known that before starting her training? She's very bright but she doesn't have second sight.
Yes Iam64 my recent experiences with matters medical have been no access to my GP but diagnosis by practice nurse ( Australian) , a visit to a physician associate ( Syrian) and a physiotherapy appointment with a delightful young woman from Sri Lanka. I'm not complaining, simply referring to my previous post.
The thing I have never understood is that doctors and nurses undertake their paid for training with no guarantee of a job afterwards. The dd of a friend trained as a medic with the army to cut costs and then had to work for two years as an army doctor. Why doesn’t the NHS do similarly?
I saw a physician associate at an emergency appointment on Tuesday. There’s no continuity of care in general practice any more. It’s obvious and research confirms better outcomes for older patients if they have continuity of care by their GP.
Yesterday I had my third, non related, initial assessment for a relatively new health problem. As a result of long waiting lists, I’m an NHS patient at our local private hospital. The surgeon was excellent, I have another reviews in his diary. I mention this because it follows on my previous post about immigration. The consultant was born in Nigeria and came here to work in the NHS as well as this private practice. Our NHS wouldn’t function without so called immigrants.
The government could end the strikes and should properly invest, rather than let it fall apart so private medicine becomes routine
Ilovecheese has hit the nail on the head. The current government declares itself to be in favour of a market driven economy.
Doctors can and do earn better elsewhere/ enjoy better conditions elsewhere. So, whilst we argue/discuss what we think of their pension rights and what was agreed at the start of the NHS ( long before any working doctor today was born!) the doctors leave - never to return. The solution is obvious.
When doctors leave a post it's highly unusual for them to have an exit interview so there's no opportunity for anyone to know if they have had a good or bad experience. Normal practice with good employers! Generally the NHS trusts are a pretty poor employers.
^NHS Jobs has tens of thousands of live vacancies every day in area of the NHS and across the country.
25,000 vacancies over 350 roles^.
The above are quotes from the NHS job site. Does this sound like a good employer with people queuing up for jobs? This is the true state of our health service. I worked for a good employer, our staff turnover was less than 2%, vacancies were like gold dust and filled instantly, we were always inundated with applicants.
paddyann54
No strikes here our NHS settlement was made in July I believe and was@ '17.5% over 2 years for doctors and dentists.Get yourselves a goverment that will TALK and sort things out.
Another "Meanwhile in Scotland" post which illustrates what can be achieved when you have a caring, pro active Government which on a tight, limited budget serves all the people rather than one which is all about profits, loopholes and tax cuts for the wealthy.
maddyone
Thank you Greyisnotmycolour, you are exactly right. The name of the role is Physician Associate, and from what my daughter said, I don’t think doctors are impressed by the introduction of these people, who apparently will be expected to do much of the work of doctors. But they are not doctors. It is extremely frightening. I wish people would wake up and understand what is happening in our health service.
I wish people would wake up and understand what is happening in our health service.
I couldn't agree more.
We seem to be a nation that complain about things when it's too late to take the action that might have prevented them from happening in the first place.
Thank you Greyisnotmycolour, you are exactly right. The name of the role is Physician Associate, and from what my daughter said, I don’t think doctors are impressed by the introduction of these people, who apparently will be expected to do much of the work of doctors. But they are not doctors. It is extremely frightening. I wish people would wake up and understand what is happening in our health service.
Maddyone I think the link above is what you were referring to.
Thank you foxie for your informative posts, and also thank you to the other parents who have con to this thread, and actually know what they are talking about. We are all patients, just like everyone on here, but we see and hear what our adult children tell us, and so we have a view of what is happening to doctors and to the health service that others do not have.
My daughter is currently in New Zealand, but she keeps abreast of what is happening in the NHS by being in a number of online doctor groups. Although she is so far away, she has told me about the lack of training places for doctors and how difficult it is to get work. She is a GP, fully trained and now very experienced. She has told me that it is becoming difficult to get a job as a GP in some areas in the UK. You may very well ask why since we have such a shortage of GPs, and the answer she tells me is that there is now a preference in some areas/surgeries to employ Nurse Practitioners instead of actual doctors, because presumably they are cheaper. She has also told me about the training of people who do not have a medical degree, for two years in hospitals, to work in specialties, instead of doctors doing the work. They have a name but I’ve forgotten what it was she called these people. What you do not know about how doctors are being replaced by non doctors, doing the work of doctors, is truly frightening.
FoghornLeghorn
Dickens
25Avalon
Dickens they are referring to the Gloucester Royal during the closure.
"Cheltenham A&E department closing or restricting treatment over Christmas and New Year due to junior doctors' strikes"
SKY NEWS! yesterday.
It's also in the MIRROR.25Avalon means that patients are being referred to GRH, not that is it GRH that’s closing.
That's a given - if you call an ambulance in 'normal' times,(though I've forgotten when that was), you are frequently transferred to the RGH instead of going to CG if there is a shortage of doctors, and after 8pm until 8am, almost all patients are sent to RGH when the CG unit is nurse-led. The department is overwhelmed constantly, and it would not surprise me if very soon it becomes a minor injuries only unit. But it was at least possible previously to get to A&E by car if you could arrange that.
And now the RGH is completely overwhelmed. The last time I was there, I spent the whole night in an ambulance - being treated by doctors coming into it at various intervals. I needed admission, but there were no available beds.
There was talk of closing Cheltenham A&E completely concentrating 'resources' at GRH - this might be the catalyst.
Sorry 25Avalon - I misunderstood your post!
Dickens
25Avalon
Dickens they are referring to the Gloucester Royal during the closure.
"Cheltenham A&E department closing or restricting treatment over Christmas and New Year due to junior doctors' strikes"
SKY NEWS! yesterday.
It's also in the MIRROR.
25Avalon means that patients are being referred to GRH, not that is it GRH that’s closing.
Germanshepherdsmum
GPs and anyone not employed by and working solely for the NHS has to buy their own insurance. I have already said that the NHS pension scheme for doctors is very generous. Pay packages have to be considered as a whole. The doctors have had a reasonable offer. Whether anyone chooses to become a doctor, in full knowledge of the pay package, is entirely up to them.
The NHS has an indemnity insurance to cover it's own costs from a negligence claim and which will pay up if one of their doctors is found guilty of negligence it does not, however, protect the individual doctor from potentially being found guilty of negligence and possibly being struck off. That is why doctors need their own insurance.
SueDonim
My medic dd tells me that she knows a number of medics who are out of work unless they can pick up locum/bank jobs. The permanent and training posts are just not there, despite the govt saying there are so many vacancies. One single post in her Trust recently attracted over one thousand applications, two thirds of which were from abroad.
My dd has applied for a training post next year but who knows whether she’ll get one? Locum/bank work is precarious because you don’t know when work will be available plus banks/loans/mortgage people are very antsy about an irregular income.
Absolutely correct, there is a shortage of training places. New graduates have failed to get an F1 training place and therefore can't work. DD passed her part 1 Anaesthetics and couldn't get a suitable part 2 training place and over 500 were in the same position! The govt is talking rubbish when they talk about training more doctors as they can't train the ones they already have coming through from Med school. Every trained doctor who moves abroad is a hugely expensive loss to the NHS as it stops the training potential for the graduates who are in the system. It is doctors who train doctors. Locum work is well paid and very expensive for the NHS but is not a training post so doesn't count towards progression. It is such a huge mess and most people just don't don't have a clue. DD said if she was following a medicine speciality, she'd almost certainly leave. Reason, these doctors spend a huge amount of time trying to get their patients a bed, trying to get patients out of hospital into more suitable care, trying to get patients the tests they need, chasing up the results of tests that have been done and a small amount of time actually being a doctor. It is not why these talented, clever young people went to medical school.
25Avalon
Dickens they are referring to the Gloucester Royal during the closure.
"Cheltenham A&E department closing or restricting treatment over Christmas and New Year due to junior doctors' strikes"
SKY NEWS! yesterday.
It's also in the MIRROR.
Dickens they are referring to the Gloucester Royal during the closure.
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