Junior doctors strike

Grantanow

Going back to maddyone's initial post, I find it inexplicable that the government can find £3 billion as a sweetener for the Northern Ireland deal with the DUP but can't find money to pay NHS staff better.

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Going back to maddyone's initial post, I find it inexplicable that the government can find £3 billion as a sweetener for the Northern Ireland deal with the DUP but can't find money to pay NHS staff better.

Indeed it could, not sure of the circumstances but I'm sure there must be one. If the patient expressed "irritation" with the doctor but is too incapacitated to make a complaint, perhaps you should help them or you could contact Pals, the patient liaison service to discuss the patient's options. Does he want the doctor barred from practising or just a slap on the wrist for writing the wrong the date? Perhaps a letter to the hospital's chair of the trust? I think it's important to establish the actual level of this junior doctor. Was he/she a foundation doctor or someone more senior, this could have important training implications ie at what level of training do doctors learn about "how to ensure they write the correct date". Or perhaps it was just a mistake made by a busy doctor or more likely a nurse who completed the form and asked the doctor to check the details and sign it as correct. Who knows but I think you need to get to the bottom of it.

The wrong date of an operation could be a complication in certain circumstances. I have no way of knowing what other mistakes were made. However the patient expressed irritation with this particular doctor but I did not think it was worth probing as patient still very poorly and in pain.

I think you should draw attention to any life threatening mistake made by a doctor and if you have received poor service I totally support your right to complain. What I don't support is nurses undermining doctors or trying to justify poor performance. that is very clearly wrong. Did the junior doctor do anything else other than put the incorrect date of the operation?

Actually the nurse was making excuses for the very inadequate performance of his colleague and tried to justify poor performance on the basis of poor pay. I felt sorry for the elderly patients sitting in the discharge room waiting quite some time.
I am in two minds whether to draw attention to the junior doctor’s mistake as medical practice does require attention to detail.

ronib

My point is that the rest of the team were exemplary and the junior doctor, according to the nurse in charge of discharge had issues about being paid £13.50 an hour. I really don’t think that ill people should be sent home without medication because the junior doctor is having a work to rule. But then that’s my perspective….

There is no "work to rule" and how totally unprofessional for a nurse to discuss another colleague with a patient's relative. I hope you complained about that but I think nurses undermining their doctor colleagues is a sign of the poor morale in the NHS.

Also unable to read notes and fill in a form accurately is also an issue. In fact the gp might be a bit confused too.

My point is that the rest of the team were exemplary and the junior doctor, according to the nurse in charge of discharge had issues about being paid £13.50 an hour. I really don’t think that ill people should be sent home without medication because the junior doctor is having a work to rule. But then that’s my perspective….

ronib

Despite timely and life saving treatment over the Christmas holiday at our local hospital, we’re a bit perplexed by the discharge notes which has date of operation as 1 December. The consultant working through the night was first class. Well worth every penny. The nurses were very kind. However we had to return to the discharge lounge 3 hours after patient sent home for medication and wrongly filled in discharge notice. This had been completed by a junior doctor.

A consultant wouldn't have signed it. A junior doctor is any doctor who is not a consultant, tbh it was probably the most junior, junior doctor ie an F1. Your point is?

Despite timely and life saving treatment over the Christmas holiday at our local hospital, we’re a bit perplexed by the discharge notes which has date of operation as 1 December. The consultant working through the night was first class. Well worth every penny. The nurses were very kind. However we had to return to the discharge lounge 3 hours after patient sent home for medication and wrongly filled in discharge notice. This had been completed by a junior doctor.

Purplepixie I am sorry to hear of your wait for surgery. I had quite a wait for my hysterectomy a few years ago.
More doctors would shorten lists but we dont have enough doctors, perhaps because of pay and conditions. Anyone familiar with the song " There's a Hole in My Bucket, dear Liza..." ?

Purplepixie

I worked for the NHS for some years as a medical secretary and I never received a pay rise in all that time. Now I do think that the junior drs should get the pay rise but why have they left it for years and years and then hold strikes? They should have demanded the rises years ago. Also I have had my hysterectomy operation put back twice because of their strikes. Now what if I have cancer and die from this before they get my operation? I feel for both sides but right now I want to think about me. Sorry if this upsets some people.

I'm sorry you are having cancellations, I'm also on a wait list and haven't even got to the point of being offered a date! It's just not good enough, is it. Like living in a third world country but tbf to the doctors, they have continually put the needs of the NHS above their own and it has got them precisely "nowhere".

Purplepixie doctors didn’t leave it for years and years. They have been on strike in previous years, and tried to negotiate for many years. The government is intransigent. That is the problem.

Actually two good posts foxie and SueDonim and also others. I half wrote my post above when my phone rang and I was speaking to my niece for a good while, so the thread moved on whilst I was otherwise occupied.
I would direct posters back to the post I wrote upthread about costs to my doctor daughter re training and in service training, and the difference between her and my two sons, and how their training costs were met. It’s an interesting point.

I worked for the NHS for some years as a medical secretary and I never received a pay rise in all that time. Now I do think that the junior drs should get the pay rise but why have they left it for years and years and then hold strikes? They should have demanded the rises years ago. Also I have had my hysterectomy operation put back twice because of their strikes. Now what if I have cancer and die from this before they get my operation? I feel for both sides but right now I want to think about me. Sorry if this upsets some people.

Another very good post foxie.
The problem as I see it is that much of the public think they’ve paid their NI contributions, or not if they remain per housewives, and think that those payments cover the cost of all of their State Pension, plus every bit of health care they require, as and when they require it, including face to face GP appointments as when they want one. Whilst I totally support our NHS, I do not support the idea that doctors owe us because we paid NI contributions.
My daughter is currently working abroad as a doctor. She worked in the NHS for 14 years before she went abroad, and she hopes to return and work for the NHS again in the future.
So these figures of work for five years in the NHS simply don’t apply for her or most doctors who leave.

well said Mirren. We also have Drs in the family and I find some of these comments really ignorant of what is actually happening. The 'junior' Drs in our family have very little personal life, they work so much

Glorianny

I was just thinking if an apprentice is paid is that a wage or a training cost?

That's an interesting question, I'm not sure I can answer it but throughout my working life I have received training paid for by my employer and also delivered training to colleagues. I've never been asked to pay back the value of that training when I've left, nor have I received training on condition that I continue to work for that employer. I really don't understand why anyone thinks it's OK to pick on medics or why they think because medics work exclusively for the NHS in order to receive the training they need to be competent at their job that they should be paid less. I've friends who work in IT, the salaries they command (partly because of the shortage of suitably qualified people) are frankly eye watering. They work on contracts for the government but for private companies or agencies so effectively are being paid by the tax payer!

That’s a good analysis, Foxie. One cost for FY and junior doctors that hasn’t been mentioned is the frequent moving from one area to another that is often required. They may be moving every six months or so, which costs money and time as well as the social upheaval of an unsettled lifestyle.

People also don’t realise that student doctors don’t spend five years lolling about in lecture halls or in the pub. Their courses are full time and in many universities they work in hospitals or in the community (under supervision) for their last two or three years of training. The NHS would fall down even more if student medics were not deployed in this way. This demand for forced labour is nonsense and people need to open their eyes to what is really involved. In any case, who wants to be treated by a doctor who doesn’t want to be there?

As it is, my own medic dd is paying back her costs in pounds of flesh. She’s lost at least 10kilos since entering her FY years and is currently wearing size 6/8 clothes that hang off her like she’s a coat hanger. I’m seriously concerned about her health.

Greyisnotmycolour you are absolutely right. Whilst we debate training costs/ pensions et al, doctors leave in droves or elect to limit their stress by working part time: my designated GP works one day a week. Therefore we are short of doctors, so need to offer a more attractive package to stay, incorporating pay and working conditions- our current government is supposed to be an active supporter of the market economy, aren't they?
Oh and Sazz - I hope that your niece's problems don't relate to an existing condition as she'd be uninsurable and the wait would be just the start of your problems. My diabetic daughter would be uninsured and thus responsible for all of her health costs, not just those relating to her condition.

I was just thinking if an apprentice is paid is that a wage or a training cost?

They’re also working as their training continues - long shifts under huge pressure and with so many critical comments

A question was asked in Parliament about this. The answer really isn't clear on how much the individual pays and how much the state contributes. I would imagine there is such a huge variation it can't be generalised. I also wonder can paying someone to do a job be considered a cost? Isn't it paying for a service?
questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2023-04-24/hl7405

"£163,000 paid in grants that the government won’t get back. These either go directly to students, to healthcare providers to support clinical placements, or to universities to reflect the higher costs of delivering medical education.
Another £64,300 comes in student loans. These are similar to loans for other kinds of university courses, covering tuition and living costs." fullfact.org/health/cost-training-doctor/
Actually, another way of looking at this is to say, Students PAY on average £64,300 to become a doctor, studying for at least five years and they then work for two years on extremely a very poor salary as F1/F2 doctors for the NHS being shunted round the country. This is before they can start specialist training which can then take 8 or more years. Whilst undergoing further training they are the backbone of the NHS, work very unsocial hours, frequently do unpaid overtime, pay for their exams and additional external training which has to be done outside of their working hours, pay an annual amount to be a registered doctor with the GMC and also to the the body which represents their specialism (or they can't take the exams) and they also pay about £500pa insurance. Paying for placements, clinical in the case of undergrad doctors, is common place for many professions. Schools get paid for having trainee teachers, hospitals get paid for having physios etc, vets get paid for giving placements to trainee vets. Surely if you want properly trained people they have to be trained but why should doctors be treated differently, do we expect teachers to pay back their training costs if they leave the profession or go to work abroad or at a fee paying school?