Roman Catholicism

Do you think that the RC church has led to an increase in child abuse?
Do members of this church feel inordinate guilt at questioning their clergy?

Well, they do say. "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic" and I think, to some extent, it's probably true. When I (in my thirties) made a serious effort to return, as it were, to the faith of my childhood and then later realised that it genuinely wasn't for me, I found it very hard and quite painful to break the newly forged link.

No I don't think it has led to an increase in child abuse but it has quite clearly turned a blind eye to that which was happening. under its own umbrella

I am no longer a member of the church so cannot spek for others.

speak, not spek (which is a kind bacon).

OK. I will participate in this based on my experience of joining the Catholic church as an adult and then withdrawing from it a few disillusioned years later.
I don't think I will be able to do it all in one go as it is a convoluted tale.

Will it be possible to have this discussion purely about our views and experiences of catholicism and without sending out personalised attacks? I hope so.

Could we also welcome comments from catholics who are happy with their religion and then treat these posts with respect?

glitabo

Well said. I don't fancy your chances though. I think you refer to following posts that may come along rather than those already here as I see no problem with them.

Absolutely.

glitabo I don't see any reason to anticipate personalised attacks and why would you? Surely everyone – contented or disillusioned Catholics or anyone else for that matter – is quite entitled to state their opinions. As far as respect is concerned, people posting may be entitled to it but their opinions and comments may not.

I would agree with that.
In fact that is what I would hope would happen.
I can't moderate his thread as only GNHQ can do that, but if everyone agrees I will try to referee and stay neutral.
I would do this by asking for deletion of any inappropriate comments.

Please!

We are all rational adult beings.

Surely we can debate calmly and without acrimony.

1 comment before I get stuck in. I found myself in the weird position of defending the Catholic church on the Jimmy Saville thread.

Oh POGS what a disillusioned and disappointed cynic you are.

Absent I made that comment purely because I have read some quite heated personal attacks on others threads.
As for respect the person and not their views that may possibly be semantics. My view on that would be. I respect that that is your view but I do not agree with it.

absent

Not really just at every turn I get someone remonstrating with me and it is quite tedious. Even when I don't post.

If I am a disillusioned and a disappointed cynic in your eyes then I can hardly do anything about that.

Well here goes. I am a cradle catholic. There are many things which the church has done which I disagree with. But, and it's a big but, the 'church' is so huge that it is pretty meaningless to describe it as a monolithic entity to which all members conform in every matter of belief and practice.

I went to convent school with highly academic and feminist nuns who set us on the path of social justice and individual women finding their vocation in whatever way was right for them, be it marriage, the single life or a religious vocation. I have three dear friends who became religious. They have led very interesting lives which range from working in an orphanage in Albania to being a shop steward in a northern factory ( and being accused of being a communist as a consequence) to being a doctor in Medecine sans Frontière.

I am a member of a parish which is supportive, caring and which involves itself in many community and charitable works. The intellectual level of debate is high in the many groups which operate in the parish.

I acknowledge that in past years the RCC, particularly in Ireland is guilty of grave sin. I and others in the 'church' do not seek to defend this but this in itself does not invalidate the reality of the thousands of worshipping communities which seek to do God's will in the best way they can.

I think it's pointless in this thread to debate the existence of God. Those who disagree will never change and neither will we who believe in God so hopefully this thread can debate the two questions posed above.

No, the RCC has not led to an increase in child abuse. As I said above, it is the gravest of sins and totally abhorrent to all right thinking person. But abusers will always seek those occupations which give them access to children be it the clergy, the Scouts, sports coaches, teaching and so on. The RCC now has in place the most rigorous child protection systems possible. It may not be 100% perfect but it is the very best that can be devised.

Do Catholics question the clergy? You bet they do! Long, loud and vigorously. The official teaching of Rome is one thing - if I can compare it perhaps to the official manifesto of a political party - but individual members accept it according to their conscience. And that had always been the official teaching if the church. One's conscience overrides all else.

Shall I start?
I brought up in a very strict methodist household with chapel 3 times on Sundays. Not allowed to play out, go to the cinema and a whole host of prohibited things on Sunday.
We were also a tee total household.
A a young adult I had no affiliation to any church. One school that I taught in was an RC Primary school. It was a small school with a very strong family feel to it. I became friends with the other staff and of course the priests. Gradually I became more and more involved with the religion and finally undertook a course of study for 6MONTHS in order to be received into the church. I was very happy then and all was well with my world.
But that did not last long.

"Once a Catholic always a Catholic"? Not me!
By the age of 11 I was disgusted at the hypocrisy I saw all around me all of the time. Within my family (and I won't even go there!) and within my school and the church.
One of our priests was having an affair with a married aunt of mine.
Another was known (by us children) to like to sit you on his knee and put his hand down trousers/up skirts.
All made a beeline for the pub on the opposite side of the road after Mass on Sunday. I wasn't very old before I noticed that every Catholic church was opposite or next to a pub!!
We were only one of many families where the fathers joined the priests in the pub and then beat the shit out of their wives for a bit of Sunday afternoon entertainment (and then most likely impregnated them later as a nice end to the weekend).
The nuns who 'educated' me were all evil, sadistic bitches (bar one wonderful angel). I was beaten to within an inch of my life many times.
Can't think of a single redeeming feature of the wonderful Roman Catholic Church.
Biased? Yes - justifiably!

Isn't semantics mostly to do with linguistics and logic? I'm not sure what you mean by semantics in your post.

However, "That is your view but I do not agree with it" is exactly what I was saying. You may, of course, express it, but I do not have to agree with you. (One rather than you but it gets cumbersome in a post.) And, I would add, I do not have to respect your view. Would we, for example, respect the view, for example, that Jews are trying to take over the world and should be prevented, if necessary, by annihilation? It's certainly not a view I would respect. I realise that has little to do with Catholicism; I was just trying to make a very obvious point.

Well........... once a Catholic always a Catholic as absent rightly pointed out.
I also agree with her in that I don't think it has led to an increase in child abuse but do not condone the church's (powers that be) attitude in not dealing with it appropriately once it came to light.
Second point - 'inordinate guilt about questioning the clergy' - Jeni do you mean about child abuse itself or about general questions on the Catholic teaching?
My personal stance is that I do not feel guilt on questioning the clergy about anything should I wish to do so.
With uncles and cousins priests, I am quite used to clergy and to discussing all sorts with them. Cousins, in particular, are/were very broad minded and sometimes ahead of their time with their views. My father also, altho' a devout Catholic, was very much ahead of his time and his attitude and views rubbed off on me.
For the record, should anyone be interested, I still practise altho' not as regularly as I should and I consider myself to be first a Christian who is also a Catholic.

I would hope that no one would take offence at Dave Allan's parting words of 'may your God go with you'.

miceElf that seems a very reasoned argument one,of the most logical arguments I've seen on this topic.

Can all other people please try to pertain to this standard of polite debate.

mrs hat child abusers per se.

I was fine as a catholic whilst living in England. When my husband and decided to live in Ireland that things began to change.
When I was in England I was proud to be a catholic. We were in a minority. Our parish church was a friendly place to be with a strong social conscience and a fore runner in raising awareness on third world issues.
When I got to Ireland the tone was different. There was an element of duty, disenchantment and fear.
Catholicism in Ireland was the majority power.
I was in immediate battle with the Brothers who taught my younger son. Mass (which I used to love was a rushed, lets get it over with affair.)
My honeymoon with the RCC was over and it was welcome to the real world.

'Once a catholic.....' Definitely not!

Ladies, I'm to bed.
Whatever religion or not.
May you have a pleasant and tranquil night

Night all!

I am concerned that I am hogging this thread so I will bring my tale to its conclusion.
After I divorced my ex( back in UK) I had a letter from a priests order in Dublin asking me to sign a paper agreeing to annul my marriage. My ex wanted to marry a girl who wanted a Catholic ceremony and in her eyes my ex was still married.
Apparently such annulments are common. All you have to do is pay the church a sum of money, not disclosed, and say that you were not sincere when you made your vows.
That sums it up really. RCC church is built on hypocrisy, power and money.
I did not agree to annul my marriage. I was 15 years of misery for me and I am not going to pretend it did not happen just to keep Ex and version 2 happy.