Roman Catholicism

G, I think that theory is put forward every now and then, but the out of Africa 'meme' has the strongest evidence, as I understand it. Will check out my sources. [not speaking as resident scientist, btw]

Well yes about out of Africa. That's also my point. I suppose I could have just asked why the comment about mainland Europe/not being Irish was relevant to talking about Catholicism.

So, while we are awandering.....is it not known now that humans developed in several different parts of the world? Over to our resident scientist......

'Twas ever such!

I am interested in what makes people tick and their religious beliefs and political allegiances seem to me to be important in helping me to understand.
Threads wander wither they will, it is the nature of all conversations.

And whoever came before them.

bags hang on. If you're going back then we' re all out of Africa.

jeni, you're a horror!

The Celts were from mainland Europe originally. That is my point.

She's like that. I think I'm going to deliberately put in errors to see if she spots them?

Bags, as always your sharp eye has detected an error. I should have written 'mainland Europe'.

That is a very gracious post, absent. Thank you.

You pose two questions which I shall attempt to respond to.

Firstly, yes I do think the British public would have deep suspicions of a catholic PM. Going back to Tudor times there is still deep within the British psyche a feeling that a catholic is not, and cannot be, 100% loyal. I think that is mistaken, but I think it exists.

Secondly you raise the idea of hell. And heaven. Again, no one knows. Heaven can be described as the ultimate relationship with God. But as I said above as god is necessarily beyond time and space it is impossible to put this idea into words. Catholic life is focussed on living the best we can in this world. I have never heard the mediaeval concept of hell articulated inside a RCC. That's not to say that many years ago, those with small education and a limited understanding attempted to describe that loss of all that good and true in those terms.

We (I'm speaking about those members of my diocese whom I know to a greater or lesser degree) try to follow the teaching of the gospels in our everyday lives. We don't fret about 'pie in the sky'. The great precepts from the gospels are 'The kingdom of god is within you' and 'Love your neighbour as youself'.

That's the best I can do.

lilygran your link was an advertisement for legal advice. Since when did adverts tell you the problems?
celebgran of course there are men who are hard done by, by the divorce laws. I know a few.
But in the grand scheme of things divorce laws are there to protect women (and children) from men who are violent and unfaithful and then think they can walk away with a new partner without facing up to their responsibilities and without any acknowledgement of the contribution made by their, often long suffering, wives.
For a long time in this country the system was totally skewed in favour of men.
If you try to make things fairer, there will inevitably be some good natured people who suffer.
But back to the influence of the RC hierarchy on Irish law. There is no way of knowing how fair it is at the moment. Because of the way it was drafted. No accident.

Small point, elf, but as a historian you'll know that "The Irish" have a
European heritage as well, plus Scandinavian like lots of us in the British Isles.

I'm interested as well.

MiceElf The title of the thread is Roman Catholicism so I have assumed any matters concerning or related to Roman Catholicism can be raised. I asked the question about Tony Blair because I genuinely wanted to know whether there is some thinking among the public that a Catholic Prime Minister is unacceptable. We've never had one. The constitution still prevents members of the Royal Family from marrying a Catholic and remaining in the line of succession.

Similarly, I asked about hell because I assume that if one believes in heaven, which Catholics do, then surely they must believe in hell. I wondered what believers thought about hell: is it still old-fashioned fire and brimstone, something more modern, simply the absence of God or one of those things that no one much thinks about? The subject of purgatory arose from there and I was curious as Greatnan had suggested that the RC church no longer acknowledged it. She appears to be mistaken.

None of these posts have been broadsides fired at the Catholic faith or its adherents. As a former Catholic – I can't claim merely to be lapsed – I genuinely wanted to know. It has been pointed out several times that things have changed over time in the Catholic church as they have elsewhere and I was curious. I am extremely sorry if I have offended or irritated you; it was never my intention.

it worked very much in my sis in laws favour, she never worked since day she married my brother and ended up havingher debts paid off and 60/40 split in her favour due to the fact solicitor said she would not be able to earn as much.

Mmmmm nice work. especially as that was 7 years ago and she sabotaged sale of house and is still living there with benefits paying the mortgage!!
not sure how she manages it but my brother is way tooo easy going.

They have finally got a buyer but she still comes off very well indeed.
cannot put anymore as it is too personal!!

Wiki is not always to be relied on!

Catholic teaching, which I'm doing my best to condense is that purgatory is a state of being where one is not yet in the fullness of a relationship with God. But as God is outside time and space it's not possible to have an understanding of quite what that means. As science extends our knowledge of the universe so theology draws on those insights ( as all academic disciplines cross their boundaries to extend their understanding) to express profound ideas in language which in itself is an imperfect medium.

Greatnan, I'm sure you can live without what your nun told you. But as you do not have a religious belief I'm struggling to understand why the issue is of any interest.

There is certainly no such thing as public confession! What there is, is a service of repentance which anyone is free to participate in. It's identical the the C of E liturgy.

I'm not sure that there is much point my continuing to participate in this thread as it seems to have developed into a number of posters firing broadsides about anything and everything from TB to Ireland to purgatory and beyond. There may be other catholic members of this forum but I rather suspect that the tone of the postings is off putting. I stated my position as clearly as I could at the start of this thread and I don't really have much to add.

Four years during the previous five - and you don't have to be living in a different house. The link I posted is very informative.

Sorry if you could not read between the lines of my sarcastic yeah right
It is my shorthand for saying that unless there are transparent rules as to what divorced partners are entitled to, then I assume that the system works in favour of men.
As it did in this country for a very long time - until it was made clear in law that women were entitled to half the financial assets including pensions.
I say "women" because they have often contributed a lesser amount in wages, and are the most frequent petitioners. Until there is equality of opportunity and income, divorce laws will predominantly protect women.
So you get an all male hierarchy of the church, very cosy with a verynearlyall male hierarchy in irish politics, coming up with a lip service law that suits men.
The Both spouses and children (if any) be properly and adequately provided for is deeply patronising, sexist and because there is no public record of judgements, impossible for the public to monitor or evaluate.
Apparently in practice you have to not only prove you have been "separated" for 10 years, but then wait a very long time for a judge to hear your case.

I have had some fun looking up 'Catholic Church and Purgatory' and it seems it is still considered to exist, but nowhere does anyone tell us what the suffering consists of, but it seems a bit unfair. You can die after having your sins forgiven in confession (no public confessions, Lily) but you still have to do time in purgatory. One nun told me that it was the absence of God and I thought, 'I could live with that'.
Limbo it seems has gone, but some sites say it was never official policy.

I should have looked at the dates. But Wiki says something similar. I couldn't actually find anything that said, 'forget about purgatory'.

Lilygran this text is dated 1911. The author of the website is a well known American extreme right winger. He's entitled to his undeveloped view. But he's out of kilter with the great majority of church members.

Jess M, I'm not sure what 'yeah right' adds to the debate.

Speaking as an historian, I can, if you wish, point you to some excellent accounts of the interactions between the Irish and the British. And, no, I'm not Irish at all. I have a European heritage.

On divorce in the Republic www.divorceireland.ie/home.html

And then there is the Irish divorce law. Nightmare to negotiate. No clear rights for women. Just that the judge needs to "make sure everyone is taken care of" approach. yeah, right. And nothing in public domain so no one knows what this means in practice.