Roman Catholicism

When I became a government employee in 1990 I did have to physically sign the OSA. I am not going to risk losing my pension by blabbing! (No, I don't think they could take my pension really).

You don't actually have to sign the Official Secrets Act for it to apply to you. (It applies to everyone in the country.) Signing just reminds you about secrets that you are supposed to keep. Why they are to do with charities is anybody's guess.

...with your bare hands...

Does that mean, greatnan, that if you told us you would have to kill us?!!

In some very large and popular charities, very little actually gets through to the supposed beneficiaries. I cannot give details, as I signed the Official Secrets Act. I can say that the CEO's of some well-known charities have large salaries and sometimes free or subsidised accommodation.
I prefer to support small charities or Medicine sans Frontieres.

Hear, hear, lily. I have had a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak, about various charity fund-raising activities for some time now, and not just about the activities themselves, but the whole "I'll be shocked if you criticise what charities do" caboodle that surrounds the word "charity". Too many charities have become huge global corporations with all the not-so-clean baggage that that involves.

No, I don't know what the answer is. Just airing concerns.

Jimmy Savile has been convincingly accused of sexually exploiting the young women and girls he had easy access to because of his celebrity status. This was thoroughly bad. He raised and was instrumental in raising huge sums of money for charities. Raising the money doesn't excuse the bad behaviour but it put him in a powerful position to ignore rumours. And unfortunately, the money he raised is now tainted because it is becoming clear that fund-raising, as well as being a DJ, gave him access to even more girls who were even more vulnerable.

glitabo But the Pope has a lot of influence and has actually claimed that condoms cannot protect against HIV/AIDS and, in fact, promote its spread.

In the African countries where HIV/AIDS are epidemic, there are many reasons why people do not use contraceptives. I don't think we can hold the Pope totally responsible for that. The is a lot of superstition where men with HIV have been led to believe that sex with a child/virgin/white woman will cure AIDS/HIV.
There is also the question of availability and lack of knowledge.

I anticipated a comment about my use of 'simple', elf. I stand by what I said. Education helps people to stand up for ideas of their own, or ideas which diverge from what they have been told is right or wrong. It teaches people to question authority. People without that benefit (and there are millions of them) have a certain simplicity. There is no shame attached to that. It's just a fact.

As a similar example, think of people who think homeopathy is any use as treatment. They are saying what they believe to be right, but they have been misled because of their (often innocent) ignorance and because they have been misinformed. Their approach to medicines is 'simple' because they aren't educated enough in science to know how to question what they are told by charlatans. This means that Jeremy Hunt, our Health minister, is simple in this respect. Well, in his case, it could equally be wilful ignorance. Sorry to digress, just illustrating.

VQ - I am sure we all accept that. The problem is balancing the undoubted good with the undoubted harm.

I'm not justifying anything the church does just pointing out that it has done/still does good work as well.

vampirequeen I disagree with the statement that the Catholic Church was at the forefront of the antiapartheid movement in South Africa. It may have been part of the movement but was never the driving force. I think you will find that Father Damien is not the only person in the entire world who would live with lepers. Mother Theresa's prime concern was with children's spiritual, not physical well-being, whereas many of us would regard feeding the hungry and healing the sick as first priorities. I could go on but I think that just becomes tiresome nitpicking of which I have already been accused on more than one occasion.

Do you not think that these great scientists, artists, explorers, doctors, musicians, etc. would have wanted to progress in these fields whether or not they were catholics?
Nobody has said that the church does no good anywhere in the world, but the nuns would have a lot less HIV/Aids victims to nurse if the Pope told women they could use contraceptives.
Mother Theresa - are you sure that all the women who suffered in her clinics would endorse her saintliness?

Jimmy Saville obiously did a lot of charitable work - does that make up for his abuse of young girls?

Whilst I'm not a huge fan of my church let's remember that it has and does do some good and not bash it completely.

The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscope.
While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.

The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).

The most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966)

Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro’s Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.

Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree.

The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants

Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.

The development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.

Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. "Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide."

In South Africa Catholic schools offered non-bantu education as far as possible. The sa govt eventually stopped allowing foriegn nuns into the country to stop this

The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as “corporate personality”, the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as “good faith”, reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence

The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid (“The Song of my Lord”) and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English.

Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.

Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi (“do-re-mi”) mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).

Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.

Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.

OK you might say that's all ancient history and not the modern church but remember

The catholic church was at the forefront of the antiapartheid movement in South Africa.

Oscar Romero was murdered whilst saying mass for refusing to stop criticising the government. Other Catholic priests suffered the same fate and still others are still taking the risk.

Mother Teresa (for all her faults) went out into the dirtiest disease ridden areas to help others.

No one but Father Damian would live with the lepers.

Nuns work with HIV and AIDS victims across the world.

Sisters and Brothers run orphanages and feeding stations for abandoned children.

The Church runs schools for children who would otherwise never receive an education. The mission schools help children to escape their background by providing skills training which helps them get better paying jobs.

CAFOD offers help and support not just for disaster relief but year on year helping people to provide for themselves.

www.catholicherald.co.uk/features/2011/05/06/what-the-church-has-given-the-world/

Limbo and purgatory have, I think,been abolished. The idea of purgatory was what first made a chink in my catholic belief, when a beloved aunt died after a lifetime of service as a nurse, and I was told by the nuns that she would have to suffer torments to atone for her 'sins'. I was eight.'
'The 19th Wife' gives an insight into how people can be brainwashed into believing almost anything their 'spiritual leaders' tell them.

I don't think the nuns that taught me were simple - some of them were highly educated, but I think they had been brainwashed since birth. One told me that every good Irish family 'gave' one girl to the convent and one boy to the priesthood, and that was the parents' passport to heaven.

I am glad things have changed but I read The Catholic Herald and The Tablet every week, and many contributors appear not to have noticed that they can use their conscience on moral issues as they are still fulminating against the things I have mentioned. Perhaps somebody should tell them that the church has moved on?

Do couples who are marrying in a Catholic church still have to promise to raise their children as Catholics if one of them is from a different denomination?

If Catholics believe in heaven, which presumably they all do, do they also believe in hell? If not, why not and on what authority?

I'm just about to get up and make breakfast so this will be short.

What happened in some parishes 40 or 50 years ago cannot be compared with what happens today. Instutions develop and change.

I wouldn't choose to call people who haven't been trained in argument 'simple'. In my experience people, however educated or uneducated they are tend to do what they feel is right for them.

In my earlier working life I spent time in India and also many years in East Africa. I saw many religious ensuring that the ordinary people had access to education and health care. I can honestly say that NEVER was the issue of contraception mentioned other than to say 'you must do what you feel is right' if the issue came up.

Things have certainly changed since I was at school - my intelligent questions were treated as heresy and I soon learnt not to ask them. Our nuns were mostly from poor rural areas of Ireland and accepted the word of the church on every subject. They positively worshipped the Pope and went into a tizzy whenever the local priest was visiting the school. I am quite sure they would not have told me to use my own conscience when deciding moral issues. In fact, I have known some catholics who say that what attracts them to the church, rather than the Anglican sects, is that it gives such clear guidance on these matters.

It is the hierarchical bit that tells people how they should behave in certain situations though, isn't it? Such as not to use condoms or other contraceptives. And simple people without any training in argument with authority tend to do as they're told and even to think what they're told. So the 'own conscience' thing being 'above' the church's rulings is no help to them.

Not good.

The hierarchy CERTAINLY skews things.

Greatnan there are six enormous questions here and it would need pages and pages to address each one! and even then a nuanced response would not be possible.

Of course individual Catholics do not have to accept everything. In my post above I ended with the teaching of the church that individual conscience overrides everything. And that doesn't change.

Of course there is dialogue and discussion with the priest (who, these days is an overworked chap desperate to empower the laity) but more importantly, with other parishioners and and within the groups and societies in the parish and diocese.

Can I influence the church? Well, insofar as I can influence any institution of which I am a member, which is not much! But I do my bit.

I just think that the view of the church as the hierarchy is skewed. The 'church' is the women, men and children who meet together irregularly or regularly for prayer and to help each other to live their lives according to God's will.

It is, as has often been said, a church of sinners. That's why we belong.

Yes, Elf. Quite. My point was simply that that's all the phrase "once a catholic, always a catholic" means.

Even though I was baptised into the RCC, I was never, in fact, a catholic, so it doesn't apply to me. This is probably true of many, many others.

Nobody knows how many catholics there are, perhaps, but the church still quotes so many million members worldwide. They must, one presumes, have records to work from somewhere – baptism records.

If anyone really wanted to it is perfectly possible to formally leave the RCC. I'm not sure of the process, but I think you would need to trace your baptism certificate and then ask the priest how to go about it! You can even have a certificate to prove it.

I don't think that anyone has a clue about how many members the RCC has. I know that in my parish we don't even have a parish register, people come and go, tourists and students are here for a bit and move on and so do others. All talk of membership is vague. There is an annual guesstimate of attendance at Mass on one Sunday in March and that's it.

Many other denominations do have a formal membership process, but with us it's always been the usual muddle. If you turn up at Mass you are welcome. No one is going to start questioning you about anything.

The only legacy I have from my convent education is a tendency to feel unjustified guilt.
My own opinion of the church does not need to be reiterated, but I would be very interested to hear the views of our catholic members on the church's attitude to homosexuality, women priests, abortion, contraception, the apparent collusion with the Nazi regime and the institutional failure to deal with known abusers. Do you have to accept the church's stance on all these matters, or do you feel able to make your own judgement? If the latter is the case, would you feel able to tell your priest how you feel? Do you feel that you are able to influence the church's thinking in any way?

Some very different perceptions here. That sounds like a tough childhood nanaanna
Micelf I have never been RC but married a recovering one, as did my sister. Some of his family are practicing. MIL is member of a poor-ish midlands parish. I don't think they question much. She once said "If anyone complains to the bishop about a priest he sends the letter to the priest to deal with"
SILs all in marriages that would not be recognised by RC (divorces etc) but 2 of them still trot off to mass. One of them with some enthusiasm.
From my observations it always leaves its mark. This can be positive in some ways - a social conscience for instance. But the marks can also be scars - excessive tendencies to feel guilty for instance.