How to 'support' jobless child?

SIL dropped out of uni where he was studying architecture and moved to live with D1. He took a job in a call centre and eventually worked as a labourer. Ex husband got him an interview for a mature age apprenticeship. SIL was not enthusiastic and thought he might be better working for himself doing maintenance. D1 insisted she was not willing for them to take out a loan so he could set himself up. She told him to think of the apprenticeship as studying and that he would be qualified by the time their youngest daughter started school. The wages were extremely low for awhile until the company started paying him a bit more when they were very happy with his work. D1 went back to work three days a week after her maternity leave finished just as SIL started his apprenticeship. SIL worked many weekends for someone else to earn extra money. GD4 starts school early next year and SIL has finished his apprenticeship, he really enjoys his job and also now is paid a car allowance.

I work as an internet shopper for a top supermarket and I am amazed at how many university graduates we have working on the shop floor. However, I'm also proud of these young people as they have all said they would rather be stacking shelves then sitting at home on benefits. Also it looks good on their CV. It shows a work ethic even if it isn't the job of their choice. One by one over the 8 years I've been at this job these young people have moved on. Through hard work and determination they have the job they want. You don't say if your daughter is applying in your area or elsewhere. One very bright man at my job has a journalism degree but cannot get such a job ifiance is holding him back as she doesn't want to leave this area.

I'm not sure why vocational training seems to have ground to a halt although I understand apprenticeships are coming back. I'm sure uni isn't for everyone despite the government's message. Although I'll admit when my son quit uni after a yr we insisted he did a part time degree while he worked. UIn his last year he didn't work and after he got his maths degree he sat infront of his laptop (with the tv on as well!) and seemed to know websites that employers go to to advertise jobs. I don't know about yours but mine doesn't like to be asked questions about how he's doing so clams up at the slightest interest shown by me. TG he now has a job and starts on monday. Yippee - he'll be out of the house ALL DAY instead of sitting on the sofa surfing and watching the box. It's hard to take a menial job as it can be demoralising thinking you'll be stuck there forever so we supported our son - even gave him a small allowance - and it made him feel independant and able to look for what he wants to do. We all have to work for more than 40 yrs so it's important to be happy. Good luck to all the young (and not so young) job hunting

I think one of the big problems is that universities are now in a market economy competing for students so they are offering courses which students want to do rather than ones that will get them jobs. For example there are enough Media Studies graduates each year to fill any media jobs in the economy about 20 times over but we have a desperate shortage of engineers, physicists, IT experts and other scientists. Because so many of these new degrees are considered vocational graduates will only look for and consider jobs in the field they are qualified in regardless of whether there actually are any jobs in that field.

The young graduate who took the Employment Agency to court because her benefit was made dependent on her stacking shelves in Poundland was a geology graduate who wished to become a geological museum curator and was working in a museum on a voluntary basis. But the Museum sector is being hit by swingeing cuts, museum jobs are being lost throughout the country. Currently there are probably more experienced museum curators unemployed than employed. Her chances of getting the job she would ideally want were negligible. Yet she didnt seem to be considering anything else or even considering a job in Poundland on an interim basis.

I've just read that 50% of social work posts are unfilled in many places. Retraining might be an option. You don't know if you have a vocation until you are actually in work. One daughter I paid for a course of typing-she said recently that it was the most useful thing more so than her degree.

Er, was not talking about the folks on Jobs seekers.
My comment was much more general, more about what drives a lot of modern society - the consumerism etc. It leaves some people with a slightly distorted view about whats important in life. And its this that I think leads to much unhappiness. The feeling that if you can't have what is considered trendy then you have failed.
Jobs seekers is just to fund your search for work...barely covers transport and stamps.

Hilda, no doubt you are right about some young people, but many lack the income for basic things, such as a home and food. I hope nobody believes the lies that JSA allows people to buy plasma TVs and have holidays in Spain.

In many ways I feel so sorry for a lot of youngsters nowadays. Many have been brought up bombarded with societies images of all those wonderful consumer goods you must have. Peer pressure to have whatever is in fashion is dreadfull if it takes hold. Some folks equate 'happiness' with possessions and find it very difficult to remain cheerfull when disposable income shrinks to nothing. Some wise soul recently reminded me that 'happiness' can never be achieved by possessions. Its how you live your life, what you say and do to others that will be a much better way to fulfillment.
Whilst young people are blatantly clobbered by advertising that insists they must have the latest phone, fashions and lifestyles to be successful and happy then I am afraid there will be more and more unhappy and unfulfilled young people.
To be honest I was a bit like that in my 20s and 30s and its only as I've got a lot older and just a tiny bit wiser that I've realised its just not the case. Living well (i.e. treading gently on the world's resources), playing a part in whatever community you choose to be in and just being a decent human being is far more effective.

Although 23 years since my two left school, they were raised with the old 'Protestant work ethic' instilled; DD has never been unemployed. A dozen different jobs, from cleaning toilets to Operating Theatre Asst. - or whatever that's called these days! Now works part-time at Asda & before our semi-estrangement, also 15 hours a week as my Carer. Of course as you know, she resigned from the latter last week; no idea if she has found another to replace it.

I think the mistake has been that in recent years, while following the chimera of 50% of school leavers going onto university students have been told that a degree WILL get you a good or better job, but it never has and never will. I graduated in 1964 when less than 5% of students went to University and I had friends who worked in shops and cafes for a year at least before getting a job that would provide a career. A degree certainly improves your chances of getting a job but at a time when there is high unemployment there are not enough jobs to go round so there are inevitably going to be many people at all levels of qualification and experience without jobs.

If hospital consultants, teachers, airline pilots and many others with degrees and many years experience and achievement are unemployed and unable to get work it is inevitably going to be harder for those with degrees and no experience and as they take the burger-flipping, drinks-serving jobs, life gets even harder for those without qualifications. the proportion of those without any qualifications without jobs of any kind is far higher than the proportion of graduates.

My degree, back in 1964, was in economics and I can remember that the first essay I wrote in my first term was in answer to the question ' If in a time of high unemployment one person by constant searching can find a job, why cannot everybody who is unemployed?' It answers itself.

Frida, a tough situation for you!
I have a younger daughter slaving away at a job she does not really like but its all that was available when she graduated. I admire her tenacity, its a job that would wear anyone down yet she keeps going and has impressed her bosses very much. Your daughter has to find her own motivation. She has to want to do anything to get her on her way. The Christmas job is a great start - can open doors if she sees it as a chance to shine rather than just a fill-in. Voluntary work is a good way in too. Its all about attitude. If she appears willing to try anything, and is cheerful about it, things can happen.
Gone are the days of stepping into a job that leads to a life-time career. Its much more about looking around for chances to gain experience and showing yourself off to best advantage. Dwelling on whether she had good or bad career advise is a waste of energy. Whats done is done.
If she cant contribute any money at the moment perhaps she could be a bit useful around the home, then she can 'earn' that girly lunch with you. Good luck to you both.

Supporting someone jobless is different from searching for career path entry. If your daughter only wants to restrict herself to seeking out career opportunities then maybe your "tough love" approach might make her lower her expectations. Other posters have already said that to get her out of the house she could volunteer or get a minimum wage position. I assume that throughout her studies she already did that to get CV experience.
What do you do? Do you work? Can you find any vacancies where you go?
What is her own motivation for working? Does she want a job with a large enough salary to pay off her student debt? Would she consider setting up her own business?
Does she have other talents - sports, dance, acting, writing, art etc. Could she find a way to use them to chat to potential employers who are aware of her passion for her hobby?

Very wise words indeed Greatnan. We get sent lots of graduate CV's and I never cease to be amazed at the fact that they even dare to include a section entitled expected salary range and boy do they "expect" !

My own daughter worked in McDonalds for many years (despite her degree) and took every training course available. Their management training program is excellent and she now puts it to good use elsewhere.

There is a "let the market take care of it" (and let the devil take the hindmost) philosophy prevalent in Whitehall these days. Blair and Cameron singing off the same hymn sheet.

JessM that seems to be such a sensible idea it isn't surprising that no-one in government has taken it up!

Luckily indeed annodomini.
Yes greatnan it is one of those subjects that is really fascinating, therefore easy for Universities to sell any number of places to study it. I might well have done it myself if it had been available back then.
There are over 30 Uk universities offering places to study this subject in the Uk alone and there is absolutely nothing to stop them recruiting 100 students each a year.
Jobs for graduates without a PhD in this field may well be nil. And there will be stiff competition for jobs at that level. I think it is irresponsible and unethical to run a system that raises so many hopes.
The government could tweak the system by offering reduced fees to those who study subjects that the economy needs.

When my DS1 was in year 11, his careers officer, for some unknown reason, suggested marine biologist as a possible career. Is this their default when they can't think of anything else? Luckily, he went into catering and the hospitality industry, did well in that, then decided to become..... a cop!

Me too! And a number of posts here suggest the ones who get a job even vaguely related to a first degree, even a 'vocational' degree may be unusual. I have one young relative with marine biology working in the prison service (very happy) and a sports science graduate in insurance, also happy. Chemical engineering in a merchant bank, maths in the church............

My grandson did marine biology because it fascinated him - he spent three months as a volunteer in Tanzania during his BSc , monitoring the effects of the tsunami on the coral reef, but also building schools and digging wells. I don't think he actually considered the practicalities of getting a job. He did work as a dive instructor in Croatia for one summer and now he is looking at commercial diving as a career, as he has every possible diving qualification. Unfortunately, he is not as fit as his younger brother, who has just been accepted into the Royal Navy to train as a Mines Clearance Specialist, with no previous qualifications at all. There is a very rigorous physical test for applicants which his older brother could not pass. Apart from diving, he has no interest in anything non-academic.
Yes, universities are businesses now and I feel they do not give honest advice when touting for students. Most careers teachers I have met have never worked outside teaching and I suspect the same may be true of tutors.
The idea that three years at university is not about getting a job, but broadening your mind and giving you a chance to mature was wonderful when jobs were available. Universities were never intended to meet the needs of all students and diversity in higher education is essential.

The university expansion etc had another effect. They are businesses. They offer degrees that may sound appealing and even vocational but may be wildly over-supplying a very small market. Marine Biology is, I am afraid, one of those. Very interesting subject. I remember years ago, before there was the big expansion, there was already an oversupply of marine biology graduates. (My DH was recruiting for an environmental consultant - big pile of applicants with marine bio background but he was more interested in someone from physical oceanography, a very mathematical degree)
Forensic science was another one. Silent witness etc etc made it very popular. There are very few jobs and they may well go to those with degrees like chemistry rather than forensic science.
This combined with very little emphasis on careers education in schools.
My D niece has just completed her Masters in history of art. Not a very vocational subject you might think. Her masters is in curating modern art, so more vocational. She has worked consistently at weekends in a clothes shop for the last 4 years. She has also done a great deal of work helping in festivals, exhibitions and galleries, since she was in school. She had got a part time job in a gallery last week (hurrah!) - her retail experience helped I think as part of the role will be working in the gallery shop.
But she still expects to have to work as in H and M on the days when she will not be in the gallery.
A useful real-life illustration perhaps?
I do feel sorry for the new graduates.

Vocational education is still available in many former polytechnics. My GD and some of her friends are taking degrees in just such subjects - she is taking fashion design and technology and some of her friends are training for the hospitality industry. I pin my hopes on the fact that her university has good contacts in fashion and also that she is willing to turn her hand to almost anything - she has had jobs since she started delivering papers at the age of 13 and spent most of the summer re-decorating student flats for her landlord. Since the age of about 11, she has been my personal shopper... No, she certainly doesn't have a sense of entitlement.

I think we have, Greatnan. And I blame the utilitarian emphasis on a degree as some kind of cashable property that recent governments of all types have made. Even if you consider genuinely vocational areas - law and medicine for example - most of the training for the job goes on after the first degree. And if you add up the years of training and education, it's a very long time before you can recoup what you would have earned if you had gone straight into a skilled job. And I agree entirely with what you say about FE colleges and apprenticeships. I see that technical secondary schools are coming back (Good!). All we need now is to reinvent the polytechnics and we're all set. John Major and Tony Blair between them managed to destroy the technical and vocational education system in this country.

I think that some graduates have an inflated view of their own usefulness to an employer. I feel sorry for the generation that was encouraged to go to university to do all kinds of degrees - it kept the unemplyment statistics down. Many would have been much better off taking a vocational qualification at the local FE college, or trying to get an apprenticeship. Now, they are left with huge debts and no jobs. Employers are wary of taking on 'over-qualified' staff because they know they will want to move on as soon as possible.
One of my grandsons has an MSc in marine biology from a decent university. He has been unable to find any kind of work, not even volunteering in Third World countries. Most of these volunteer posts require the applicant to pay their own fare and buy their own equipment and the expense allowance is barely enough to support them. He was told that he needed a PhD in order to be considered, or long experience. He got the impression that they wanted only 'trust fund kids'.
I am not able to contact him, but I think his mother may have encouraged him to think he must get a job which he considers suitable for his level of education. Meanwhile, he spends most of his time in his bedroom sending his CV to any possible employer and many different agencies.
His cousin, who is now nearing the second year of a nursing degree in New Zealand, worked at MacDonalds in the UK when she was doing her AS levels and was offered a management training post with them. I believe that they are excellent employers with a good career structure for anybody who wants to work hard and start at the bottom.
Have we allowed a generation to grow up with a huge sense of 'entitlement' - to a degree, to a job, to a house - without the knowledge that those things come with hard work, especially in difficult economic times.

The emphasis on the practical usefulness of a degree and on the need for a degree to be vocationally oriented has caused a lot of problems for young people today. Years ago, you didn't think of a degree as a professional qualification. We used to talk about 'transfer of training' which meant the academic skills you had acquired in school and at university could be applied to whatever job you get. The idea of a 'graduate job' is deadening, as well. A new graduate is as useful as a school leaver at first ie they both need training before they can contribute much. You could expect a graduate to be a more confident, motivated and self-reliant learner but it isn't guaranteed.

Frida Number 2 son was in a similar position, 70 applications and no 'luck'. Largely because his degree was from a University infamous for offering spurious degrees.
He then took a job for the rest of the year working in a Harley Street clinic, which taught him confidence and allowed him to save a little. He went on to do a Masters at a reputable, red brick uni ( got a grant too) and got a job within days.
Could your daughter follow this route?
That was a few years ago and I do realise things are much more difficult these days.
Wishing you both well.
P.S. I don't see anything wrong with the occasional 'treat', she must be feeling very fed up.