Lying

I cannot for the life of me see any circumstance in which the life of a defendent could be threatened if I did or didn't lie for them in court. We don't have the death penalty in the UK. ?? very

Surely it doesn't have to be possible to be an interesting question. Don't be confused Nelliemoser just interested in such a moral dilemma and all your opinions.

Not on oath! I take swearing on the bible seriously. I took the judicial oath rather than affirmed!

Streuth, that's a bit of a stinker.

1 I believe that lying, other than polite prevarication with no lasting effects to avoid hurting someone's feelings, is wrong.
2 However, I also believe that killing people including judicial execution, is wrong (with the exception of assisted suicide which arguably isn't actually killing someone and abortion in certain instances but not willy nilly).
3 I believe loyalty to friends is important.

I suspect that I would regard number 2 on my list as over-riding, so yes, I should probably lie in those circumstances. Depending on what my friend had actually done wrong – if anything – I might end the friendship immediately afterwards. In any case, the relationship would never be the same again as indebtedness for a kind act or a good deed tends to make the indebted one resentful.

I am glad that a) my friends don't seem to have any criminal tendencies and b) this country did away with the death penalty decades ago. [phew emoticon]

I think it is one of those questions that you can answer now and then do completely the opposite if it happened! I don't suppose anyone can be 100% sure what they would do unless it happened. But as you say absent it all depends on the what they had done... which is ridiculous but true. It also depends on what the lie was, which is also crazy because a lie is a lie .. or ist it? Are all lies the same? Is there such a thing as a small lie?

helshea welcome back. You do start interesting threads.
Yes i would. If they were wrongly accused of something that would incur the death penalty. Like a shot I would.
I might even lie if they were under threat of being extradited to an american prison. I think it is completely wrong that people can be extradited and banged up for years to await trial - on the basis of no up front evidence being presented.

If I had no confidence in the court - for example, if it was a corrupt court in a totalitarian regime. Or if I thought my friend was being wrongly accused,or fitted up and I had proof that I couldn't stand up but was good enough for me I suppose I would. I think I would avoid taking the oath in those circumstances.

But would you lie for your family? I would have maintained that the motivation is irrelevant to the deed - i.e. I would not lie for a friend or for/against an enemy. And I have always been proud of my stance that I "would die" for my children, but not lie for them.
As I get older and things seem less black and white, I find myself not so sure.

I think that if I knew the friend was completely innocent.. it would be a complete "no brainer" (I hate that phrase).... I would lie lie lie and have not qualms about it whatsoever.

Sorry,I wouldn't. I would do every thing I could to prove their innocence but not lie on oath!
I might try to be 'economical with the truth! Well I was a civil servant!'

That's not a sensible question.

?

Helshea if you want a straight answer. I feel it would be morally very wrong to make any such decision without a full consideration of the circumstances.

Does every question have to be sensible? I think that would be rather boring.. and far too sensible, and I am far from that.. thank goodness!

It's not a question of being sensible; it's about a hypothetical moral dilemma but the answers we give could tell us a lot about ourselves - and I haven't got round to answering it yet.

What's the position with remaining silent in such cases?

Bags Difficult if you are summonsed as a witness for the prosecution.

British Law doesn't have the American equivalent of the 5th Amendment, does it?
As I understand it, if a witness in an American court chooses to use that, it protects them from incriminating themselves.
Not really sure if I have that right - off to check it out.

To be at the point that the death penalty is the only punishment possible in this country,means that crime has to be murder.
If that murder was self defence,I would favour my friend and exaggerate any knowledge .
If that murder my friend was the instigator for other reasons then No I would not lie.
When knowing I would exaggerate in my friends defence,I would affirm,not swear on the bible.
If my friend was in a country where the death penalty is for lesser reasons such as smuggling drugs,I would lie,but as absent says finish the friendship,
a) they should be aware enough of smuggling by be asked by strangers to take packages for them.
B) If it was not accidental then it was deliberate,I wouldn't lie for them.

If it was my child as grace has said I would die for them....but would I lie for them much harder to answer that question.

Bags I believe but not 100pc sure that if you get a subpoena you have to answer or be in contempt of court which carries a prison sentence,this was the case during our high court case,where a teacher refused to get involved...she was made to by the judge.
I don't know about other countries.

The death penalty no longer exists in Britain - it was abolished for piracy on the seas and high treason many years after it was abolished for murder.
I would never swear an oath, anyway, as I am an atheist. As I am totally opposed to the judicial murder, I would probably lie in any country where it still existed.

But to answer the question sensibly you would have to go into scrolls and scrolls of whys and wherefores.

Thanks, smollie. In that case, or if supoenaed (sp?), I think I would feel obliged to try and only use the evidence that was being presented in court as, I believe, jurors are supposed to do. A properly run case should, surely, have all the evidence. Yeah, I know things go wrong sometimes.

But we don't have the death penalty in this country, so the situation wouldn't arise here.

If I was utterly convinced of my friends' innocence, the right thing to do in my view, even if subpoenaed, would be to keep schtum and go to prison for it.

I don't think I could lie deliberately in court, but I might if I thought the police were lying (has been known).

BTW, what do atheists swear on? Is it necessary to swear on anything? If you promise to tell the truth, you've promised.

Atheists swear an oath to tell the truth bags