Good news. The ladies only classes have stopped at my leisure centre.

I think the only ladies only class should be for swimming so that the muslim ladies can go. For all other classes there is nothing to stop women from covering their bodies and joining in with everyone else surely? DH comes to pilates with me and is sometimes the only man but this is not an issue to anyone and no one thinks he is some kind of voyeur!

If women are concerned about men seeing them in skimpy outfits, wear something else!

This sort of discrimination is daft IMO. Just like we have a BLack Dance Company but there would be an outcry if we had a White Dance Company.

What is the Black Dance Company, Movedalot? The thing about positive discrimination is surely that it is a reaction to a degree of discrimination which has existed in the past.
Also I am not sure that Pilates or Step classes would work too well in a burka and even apart from the cultural aspect there are also many women who are self conscious about their body image. So how I see it is :
More mixed classes for those who want them - hurray
No single sex classes for those who want or may needthem - boo.

Totally agree Gracemum. Room for all- and we should try and provide facilities for all - partly because it makes sense so that they can be as healthy as possible too (which benefits all eventually). Frank do you really think that obese ladies and those from groups not allowed to exercise with men are all rich? Out of the week there are plenty of times and classes for those who want to be in mixed groups (like me btw) and for those who don't. Why do you have to throw your toys out of the pram and refuse to 'share'?

I guess the same argument applied movealot re the dance company. In the past there has probably not been equality of opportunity in terms of recruitment to some types of ballet company. So why should black dancers not start their own company and be given some funding to help redress that balance?

grace & Jess This is the website:

www.balletblack.co.uk/company.html

I think it may have been started when they thought that black dancers were discriminated against but that has not been the case for a very long time. If a dancer is good enough they will get into a dance company regardless of their colour so why is it OK to discriminate against non-black people?

Thanks for the link, movedalot I had not heard of them before. I think the opening lines about the founder of the company says it all:
"Of Trinidadian and British parents, Cassa trained at the Royal Academy of Dance, gaining a degree in classical ballet from Durham University. Upon graduating in 2001, she founded Ballet Black in order to provide *role models to young, aspiring black and Asian dancers*"
Rather like the Billy Elliotts of this world, I think black kids often do not think of ballet as a viable option - it belongs to "posh" and therefore, by extension "white. I do not see why black artistes should not be allowed to form a company . Is providing lack kids discriminating against white kids? I don't think so. The acid test of true integration is when we see women playing/dancing male roles, black Odettes (and not just Odile) a corps de ballet of black little swans. We are not seeing that yet.
The difference with HunterF's situation is that in certain cultures women are not allowed to enjoy leisure pursuits with men (or even pursue them, "enjoy" is a matter of opinion when it comes to physical exercise for me) There has to be room for both criteria.

That is another great argument gracesmum . I am wondering what proportion of the corps de ballet in the Royal Ballet are black, movealot?

It would be impossible to participate properly in quite a lot of exercise and dance classes wearing clothes that cover up the body because they impede movement and also the wearer is likely to overheat. For those with cultural and religious constraints, it's not simply a question of what they wear, it is also that they cannot participate in a physical class with men in the group at the same time. It seems very small minded to begrudge them a little privacy.

I seem to have lost part of a line in my last post It should have read "Is providing black kids with role models discriminating ...etc etc"
Lap top with a mind of its own today!

Hi Hilda

You say an hour and a half on a couple of nights a week.
That is probably the very time men would want to go swimming after work. I know somebody who worked at a college and he had to work 2 evenings a week.
He went swimming on the other 2 evenings a week. If the classes had been ladies only on the nights he was not working he would not have been able to go swimming.
You said that there were some unpleasant so and so's waiting for the clock to strike the hour.
Probably they were wanting to get an hours swim in when the time was reasonable.
At the centre I went to the ladies morning finished at noon and the mixed class started at that time.
I was told that one lady complained the men were walking in at about 5 minutes to 12.
If they had not been in for the start they would have been refused entry to the mixed class.

Frank

All the major ballet companies do eduction work in schools and some also have special schemes to offer classes to any child who has talent. BRB calls their's Dance Track. Incidentally they also have a dance company of people with learning difficulties. I think the idea that any minority is excluded is somewhat out of date.

I don't know how many of the RB dancers, either corps or any other level are black but I am sure you could look on their website.

When thinking of role models Carlos Acosta had been a Principal at the RB for a long time now and Miako Yoshida was a Principal at least 23 years ago.

I've never seen Odette and Odile danced by different dancers but I have seen it danced by a black dancer very recently and she had a black Seigfried. Ballet Black were quite interested in them guesting but seem to have lost that interest now that they have been so highly featured.

When I look at the training of the dancers in Ballet Black I can see that it was not at the highest level so I doubt if any of them would have made it into any of the major ballet companies in the UK.

Last night we were at an evening of music and dance and out of the 16 dancers 3 were non-white. 2 of those were Principals and 1 is very young and being given roles way ahead of his position.

I reiterate that I think it is outdated to suggest that non-whites are discriminated against in dance.

I think contemporary dance is certainly very integrated move Don't know about the ballet so open to the notion that role models are needed.
off to see Bourne's Sleeping Beauty this week

Lucky - it was sold out when I tried.

jess it will be interesting to hear what you think of it. Please let me know. I tend to think of his work more as Modern dance rather than Contemporary but we do like most forms of dance. For Contemporary my favourits would be Richard Alston's company and Nederlands Dance Theatre I & II

Hi granjura

I am not saying that women who can not exercise with men are all rich.
What I am saying is the leisure centre should not charge men the same membership fee if they are not allowed to use all the classes women are allowed to use.

Frank

Now this IS what I would call a debate - welll done all participants and please can we keep it this way.

For a short time, while our local pool was closed, I accompanied my 2DDs and their months old babies to mother and baby sessions at the pool in the city. The new mums did aerobic excercise holding the babes who became used to the water and found it very soothing. As both my DD's are keen swimmers, my role was to take charge of each DGC in turn so that his/her mum could go swim some lengths in the big pool - so far, so good - indeed excellent.

The problems arose with the changing room which was mixed with some family sized cubicles, some individual and some open areas. Everyone who has taken babies and toddlers swimming will remember the difficulties around trying to get both the baby and yourself dried and dressed, throw in the need for a quick breast feed and you can picture the scene. But what made this really fraught was the presence of middle aged men, allegedly preparing for the open swimming session - and I would swear there were more of them each week - strutting around the changing area and covertly leering at the bare big breasts of the new mums. We were very glad when our own pool re-opened and we were able to return to seperate changing rooms.

And I am just saying that in an area where there could be major cultural/religious reasons why women cannot join a mixed class,(or indeed in any area) it is depriving them of the opportunity to enjoy exercise. It is a local authority leisure centre isn't it? I think there should be the possibility of single sex classes providing there is a demand. Just as there are off-peak membership rates (up to 4pm locally) for the unwaged/retired it is not beyond the wit of a council to offer different rates for different levels of membership and usage. These women are almst certainly not using the facilities half as much as the type pf person who goes to 4 classes a week, it seems petty to deprive them of what they have been able to enjoy.

At my local swimming pool there are over-50s-only sessions as well as the women-only sessions. And there are sessions for lane-swimmers and for parents with children. And lots of other categories too. I think this makes it more likely that more people will be able to go swimming. I used to hate it when I got run over by someone doing the crawl, very fast, down the middle of a pool. I expect they found it a nuisance, too.

Oh Lilygran don't you just hate the macho men doing their super splashy crawl. The are actually swimming very badly but they certainly rate themselves.

Oh God ABSENT do not talk to me about "CRAwlers " we have a bloke at the club who insists on doing about 100 lengths . It is not the biggest pool in the world but does he care , hell no , just everyone has to move out of his way.
I do know though he is a teacher at a local school so comes in at 3.45 so I make sure I have done my laps.

Hunterf, gosh you are in a tiz about this. The sessions I refer to were from half 6 to 8.....so hardly taking up the whole evening and it was 2 nights out of 7 so there were plenty of oportunities for men of all ages to attend other sessions. Oddly enough this always made the open session that followed the ladies one very male dominated and competative and proved very popular with thse who wanted to get up a good speed - those who would have been annoyed by the ladies doing their slow chugging (and the lurking and chatting in the shallow end).
Go on, be generous, women have not always had an easy ride when men have been around. I wont go down the 'you only have to look at events in India route' but some men are still rather predatory and a little safe haven is important.

We have one who ploughs down the middle of two lanes doing butterfly, with complete disregard for anyone else.

In other words, Nonu. and Grannyeggs you have accommodated to their needs (see another thread) , not them to the needs of everyone in that pool to swim as they wish. Both these gentlemen need to be directed to a session which is more "training oriented" than the general one, not plough their way through those doing a more gentle pace. It is dangerous, apart from selfish.

Hi gracesmum

I get a discount as I am over 60 but I am entitled to use the evening classes and go about 4 times a week.
People can pay for individual classes if they only go say once a week.
Just because people are retired does not mean they are free to go in the day.
I was caring for my father to some extent after I retired and had to take him to hospital etc so I often could not make day time classes.
There is a lady who is 69 and she has to go to different classes each week as she is caring for her mother. She had a complaint from a lady in an evening class as she is a bit slow but because of hospital appointments evening classes were the only possibility for her that week.

Frank

I see where you are coming from Elegran but what can be done this is a health spa , gym and club so basically the pool is a leisure pool .

Not an olympic size . This is a private club we are talking of here . He is a pain in arse frankly . Cannot see what be done though . Ecept to just avoid him if at all possible .

However , I have to smile to myself though as he always gives me a big cheesy grin . If only he knew my feelings towards him .