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Cardinal Keith O'Brien

(28 Posts)
j08 Mon 04-Mar-13 10:38:51

Do we actually know yet exactly what he is accused of, and admitted to? Did he seek consensual relationships with the priests, or was it non-consensual abuse?

His hypocrisy is unforgiveable, but, apart from that, if it was human failings that turned sour on him, maybe some mercy is called for.

Perhaps we should with-hold judgement until we know more.

gracesmum Mon 04-Mar-13 10:43:39

I have heard too much recently of unwanted sexual advances - whether homosexual or heterosexual- being made by people in positions of authority.
This is not the behaviour of people who claim to deserve either obedience or respect. Politicians, bosses in the workplace, priests or bishops - what happened to common decency? angry

Barrow Mon 04-Mar-13 10:47:48

I agree j08 - from what I have heard he did nothing illegal so there won't be a police investigation. Reading between the lines (a dangerous thing I know). He made approaches to 2 priests and had "contact" with another.

Whilst I would agree he has been hypocritical, I think we should show him some mercy, after all his entire lifes work and his reputation has now been trashed.

j08 Mon 04-Mar-13 10:51:04

Thank God Barrow! smile Someone who agrees with me!

absent Mon 04-Mar-13 10:56:43

Barrow Why write in the passive? He and he alone trashed his entire life's work and his reputation by disobeying the vows he took when he became a priest, abusing his position of authority and then lying about his actions when they were revealed.

Before appeals for mercy, perhaps there should be some signs of penitence.

j08 Mon 04-Mar-13 11:07:51

And how do you know he isn't penitent?! shock

Barrow Mon 04-Mar-13 11:08:57

These things happened something like 30 years ago, haven't we all done things when we were younger which we now regret - isn't that part of being human?

He has apologised and resigned

As I said I believe he has been a hypocrite and broken the vows he took when he became a priest, but as what he did was foolish rather than illegal I think we should cut him some slack.

MiceElf Mon 04-Mar-13 11:10:15

My response as a Catholic, (albeit in the porch) is that his behaviour has been utterly disgraceful. He has brought his office into disrepute and he has made some of the most bigoted statements in the past that I've ever heard from the hierarchy. The RCC in Scotland seems to be deeply disordered and in need of urgent reform. I'm glad he's gone and I hope he spends his remaining years in prayer and repentance.

Galen Mon 04-Mar-13 11:12:43

I couldn't agree more. If Christ could forgive sins like the woman taken in adultery, surely we should be able to forgive this man who after all is only human.
Let him that is without sin etc:

j08 Mon 04-Mar-13 11:13:20

Galen sunshine

Galen Mon 04-Mar-13 11:13:21

That was to jing and Barrow

Barrow Mon 04-Mar-13 11:19:45

Thanks Galen - precisely the point I was trying to make (and making a right pigs ear of it!)

merlotgran Mon 04-Mar-13 11:22:42

If you're going to dress men up in long robes and refuse to let them have normal sex, you're asking for trouble!!

MiceElf Mon 04-Mar-13 11:25:11

No one knows the full details of what happened, but it would seem that that big offence (sin) was not his homosexual advances, but the abuse of power. He was a bishop and senior member of the seminary and the complainants were much younger and powerless.

He has made so many bigoted homophobic pronouncements in the past that he was given the title of 'bigot of the year'. To many, many Catholics he is an embarrassment. Not because he is apparently gay, but because of the hypocrisy and the damage he has done to sincere gay Catholics.

It's for Jesus Christ to forgive him. Or perhaps his victims, not anyone else. But in any event, justice always needs to precede mercy.

Grannyeggs Mon 04-Mar-13 11:37:56

I agree with jing and*Barrow*, but do have difficulty with him being so publicly against gays but, as micelf says, we don't know the whole story, and we may not. I do think it is time for the Catholic Church to be more responsible and do some real investigating, they have turned a blind eye for too long.

kittylester Mon 04-Mar-13 11:53:36

It's the hypocrisy that I find difficult to forgive. angry

gracesmum Mon 04-Mar-13 11:54:58

I think this "abuse of power" is what I was getting at, or trying to. We seem to have reverted to some medieval "droit de seigneur" in too many of our public bodies, in politics and in the world of work.
Do women make the same sort of advances on men? I must have had a sheltered upbringing, but it's not been my experience. What is it about power and its abuse?

j08 Mon 04-Mar-13 12:05:05

I agree about the hypocrisy. But we don't really know what feelings were at the heart of that.

j08 Mon 04-Mar-13 12:07:09

merlot that is a very good way of putting it! grin

I think it is ridiculous to expect men to put sex aside. Asking for trouble.

agapanthus Mon 04-Mar-13 12:15:11

There was a discussion on the today programme this morning about him.It was suggested that the reason for his bigotry was his denial of his own homosexual leanings. It's not just hypocracy though, it's the dishonesty in initially denying the allegations. Yes we all make mistakes and he is only human as someone said earlier, but he's had plenty of time to reflect and should have apologised straight away IMO.

Lilygran Mon 04-Mar-13 12:15:28

Evan Davis on Today suggested the Cardinal's 'hypocritical' attacks on gays might have arisen from his own confusion about homosexuality. He suggested that aggressive denunciation is sometimes a form of denial.

Lilygran Mon 04-Mar-13 12:17:01

Sorry, agapanthus, crossed posts!

j08 Mon 04-Mar-13 12:17:37

Yes. That is it exactly. Time to be accepting of homosexuality in all walks of life I think.

agapanthus Mon 04-Mar-13 12:18:16

Many homophobic people ,particularly of that generation and upbringing, are probably in denial about their own sexuality

agapanthus Mon 04-Mar-13 12:18:54

Crossed posts there. Slow at typing!