shocked!!!!

Nelliemoser - I would disagree with you on one point. IMHO a parent losing their temper (in anger) and smacking a child, crosses a line. The parent is, by definition, out of control at that point and channelling their anger at the child. How are children supposed to learn self-control when the parent is not in control of their own emotional response.

Having mentioned that I smacked, can I put that back into perspective - there were less than a dozen incidents between both my girls, all before they were age 5! We are talking a tap on the hand ..... and I do not approve, broadscale, of "hitting children".
There is also some difference in spin between "stop doing that"and "if you don't do this"..... I would never have smacked for being slow to pick up toys, eat meals, not get into bed quickly enough (all of which I was punished for as a child). I did smack a hand for continuing to try touching a plug socket (despite removal from the danger twice), also for throwing food (age 2) etc

I do, though, agree with you that threatening with delayed punishment by another parent is wrong on many levels, and seeing the word "thrash" actually made me shudder - a clear demonstration that we always need to choose our words with care.

I think it's MargaretX's use of the word 'thrashing' which causes shock. It implies a beating which is much different to a slap. Maybe there's just a confusion in terminology.

I don't really think smacking is ever justifiable or helpful at all but we are all human and I can fully understand how it happens.

However I think a quick slap in anger is more understandable than a planned "If you don't do this in x seconds" I will smack you.
If you have time to count, you have time to think of a less physical sanction for the behaviour.

What is really wrong is "wait until your father gets home! If you have to say that you have clearly lost all control anyway.

Flippin' 'eck!!! thrashing, WHAT? never!!! I was never thrashed and I would never thrash my children.

My father was brought up from the age of 7 (when his mother died) by his older sisters and brothers as his father was mostly working as a dreyman. He was the baby of the family and very loved - he, in turn, never hit my sister and I we loved and respected him and were told off when naughty but were never smacked or threatened with a smack. I grew up respectful and never in trouble. My mother was abused as a small child and her way of correcting us she seemed to learn from my father. She did get stressed and would become angry but I only remember her catching me around the legs with a wet tea towel when I cheeked her at around 13.

With my children I would withdraw privileges or time out (before it became popular with Supernanny) If I threatened "no sweets" if they misbehaved they knew I meant no sweets. Early to bed of naughty meant early to bed.

I was not and am not a perfect parent but I did the best I could.

Thrashing , that is quite appalling I would be ashamed to say that .

Isn't thrashing illegal these days?

Blimey!

inthefields I can go along with what you have written. The only control over teenagers is, is that deep down they don't want to hurt you- their parent - or for you to be disappointed in them. To reach that you have to be strict and straight forward with them as small children, all the time giving them the feeling they are free to choose.
I had a shopping list on the wall. A wad of paper. When my girls were being really naughty I would draw a line. Then I threatened them.
'When I have drawn 5 lines I'm coming into your room and will thrash both of you no matter who is to blame' It never came to that of course, and I was relieved I never had to carry it out.

Lately my daughter said she had started this, and there was the paper with 2 lines on it stuck on the fridge door.
As you say we are not perfect and as Grandma I still make mistakes.

Seems we have moved onto a whole new area here, in talking about discipline.....

I was a long way from perfect ...... and also, I think, lucky ..... but have always said that if you don't have a child "where you want them" by the age of 5, then you have little hope of a respectful relationship when they are old enough to really argue back. The definition of that, for me, is that a child does as it is asked to do, and that lesson is learned very early on.

For me, it meant teaching 'action & consequences' from a young age. I did smack very occasionally in the 2-5 years but I never (hand on heart) smacked in anger, and my girls always 'chose' the route in that I would ask the child to stop whatever it was doing, I would ask a second time with the rider that if you do that again, I will smack. Third time, I smacked once on the leg or the hand ....never hard. It was not about pain but shock factor, & following through on what I had said, and I could probably count all incidents on two hands.
It was a rare event, and all about consequences if a line is crossed
By school age, I could just start counting to 5 .... and never once got there!

I do think though, that there must be a basis of mutual respect. It is a two-way street, and it is possible to ask children to do something rather than ordering, and possible to discuss rather than having to completely control every aspect of life. Both my girls were expert negotiators by the time they hit their teens. They had choices from the earliest days ^ (red coat or blue coat? shall we go to this shop or that shop, first? you can have pudding if you eat your main course). ^

Two things make me smile to this day 1) that my daughters were both almost adult before working out that I always started negotiating way higher than the point I was happy to settle at. 2) that they both now adore sprouts, having spent years with a negotiated 'just one' or their plates

As said, I was (and am ) a long way from perfect, but I do worry when I see mothers who can only control toddlers with violence and abuse - or fail to control them at all.

Could be Petra, didn't mean to open the can. She does love her sons and is immensely proud of them. I just think that leading by example as children do as you do not as you say would be a better approach. We are all better parents in hindsight. They are at the seaside today after a picnic at a country house yesterday so the boys should be tired out. Bliss . I have them next weekend overnight. But I think that children always behave better for other people. We'll see. I may be eating my hat and bellowing like a fishwife by the end of the day

My mother told me her father used to chase her with his billiard cue. She said the worst time was when he swung it to hit her and broke it on the billiard table - and she laughed! She said she really thought he would kill her. Other people always thought he was such a nice man too.

Just a thought, could it be PMT. We all joke with my DD that we have to wear crash helmets when Its ' her time'

BTW Doesn't the word Discipline come from Disciple which surely means to follow?

I did shout, yes, not BELLOW. I suppose one would have to be in the situation to know how shocking it was. I am not easily shocked having had 5 children myself. Talk about can of worms! And Grumpy: There is no excuse whatsoever for hitting a child. The word is often disguised as spanking. If you 'spanked' a person in the street for bad behaviour you would surely be arrested.

I admit I did hit (ok smack) my youngest once when he and the little boy I was childminding (led by my son) were running up and down the room pulling the leaves off my indoor plants. I told him several times. The last time he ran past me I smacked his leg. He stopped short and said "What was that called you did?" I did not have to use physical methods to 'control' my children. Don't know why, I supposed it was following my parents' example as I was never smacked either. My mother did once swipe a wet tea towel across my legs when I cheeked her at about 12 years of age. It was so rare I remember it. My father was a gentle but firm man and I just didn't want to disappoint him so did as I was told. My best friend on the other hand was terrified of her father who was a strict disciplinarian and ruled with an iron fist.

My GC dissolve into tears if I raise my voice, the cry goes out " Grandma spoke sternly to me " If they only knew, my mother used to chase me with the broom because the handle was longer than her arms

For crying out loud remember when we were kids and we would be spanked for bad behavior. Shouting is mild!

A friend of mine was directing our local drama group and all the cast were messing about. Finally she had had enough and yelled at them to grow up and get back to work. Her son, who was about 12, gazed at her in amazement and said "You used the MUMMY voice to them!" I don't know how often she had used it at home, but it certainly worked on grown ups.

Mine can't remember me bellowing at them, but they did know I would not be pleased about unacceptable behaviour and refer to my 'look' which apparently could curdle milk!

That is interesting seasider - I certainly hold my hand up to shouting at my 3 when the going got tough; and one of them had a smack from me.

I'm not particularly proud of this, but do not beat myself up about it as I know I am only human. They knew (and know) how much they were/are loved and that was what mattered. But, when I mention these things to them, they too cannot remember them! - so it cannot have done them a huge amount of harm.

Can you all honestly say you never shouted or bellowed at your children when they were young? I know I did and recently asked son and daughter if they remembered and they did not !

Petra, I have heard her shout but this was so different.

To reiterate it was not a shout it was a BELLOW - like something I had never heard before.

The boys are well loved and just normal boisterous little boys.

My Dil had set herself up by saying in front of them "Don't go yet, they always play up when I put their PJs on, they won't if you are here" big mistake!! Children behave how they are expected to behave and they certainly did. Not shouting or screaming but just falling around and being silly. She hadn't even begun to put the older one's pjs on when she grabbed him and bellowed at him.

I do offer and give help often, we take the boys off their hands to give them space and 'me' time. I offered to put the little ones pjs on but she declined. My DS offered but she said no. She will not take any help in the house, he is not allowed to washup, cook or do much of anything. He is very domesticated but my DiL prefers to do it all herself then becomes stressed and over anxious. I love her and as I have said help as much as we can.

I do not question my DGS and would never ask about what goes on at home. He offered the information and I only asked how he felt when he was smacked as he obviously wanted to tell me. I have 9 grandchildren ranging from 2-16 and have never never interferred in their upbringing.

Fields: I don't thing my DS would appreciate it and would see it a being judgemental. I did say tho the other day that if he always told my DGS that he was the naughty one it is a self fulfilling prophecy and he would be or act naughty. He seemed to take it on board but it hasn't made any difference.

Dresden I think the bad parenting came from the Granny via daughter.
If I'd been in pain I would have made the child move pretty damn quick!

Dresden .... I wouldn't feel in the slightest bit sorry for the Yummy Mummy. I hold my hand up to being a bit old fashioned, but in my book, that was quite simply lousy parenting. However, I am sure she will be the first to cry "why" when she has zero control over him as a teenager!

Flowersofthewest .... this is diffficult, isn't it. My own GS is too young yet to have reached any sort of naughty behaviour, but I went through a similar issue with my niece.

The thing that I find worrying is not that their mother shouted (I was a noisy mother! ....the children actually knew I was really cross or upset if I became very quiet) but that your GS describes himself as "bad". I was terribly upset when my great nephew told me he was a bad boy (age about 6).

I don't think it is ever too young to differentiate between being a "bad" person and being a good person who sometimes does naughty things.....and it is this aspect that I might be inclined to open as a friendly discussion with your DS and/or DIL .... from the standpoint of "I was a bit worried the other day ....DGS told me he was a bad boy". Nothing accusatory, not commenting on their approach to parenting, and certainly not telling them they are doing anything wrong .....just genuine concern that he would think that about himself.
This is the way I approached it with my niece, and it did actually work. In a calm chat over coffee (rather than in the middle of an upset) she was horrified that her beloved child would think such a thing .... and she did change the way she spoke about naughty behaviour.

Just my spin.