shocked!!!!

I'm shocked that you have never heard your DIL shout at her children.
They must be perfect angels if this was a shock to them.

I would be very surprised if the mother of two boisterous boys so close in age had not shouted at them! - they would try the patience of a saint I am sure. They need to understand that sometimes you can push people just that bit too far!

I suppose it is slightly more worrying that they cannot make the distinction between behaving in a naughty way and being naughty - a difficult distinction to make if you have two little chaps running about and not doing as they are told and you've got PMT perhaps.

I should cut them some slack unless you seriously think they are abused children who are being smacked all the time.

Sometimes I watch what is going on between my GC and my DDs and wonder if it might be done better, but I button my lip, as I have both the benefit of experience (which they cannot have) and the time and energy (which they may not have after work/sleepless nights etc.) to handle things in a diffferent way.

I guess I would think it might be best not to ask your GS about these things, but just to enjoy the positive experiences that you can give him, as you are in the privgileged position of grandparent with time and patience to give and no need to et cross.

I have my 10 year old GS staying tonight - he and my OH are watching the Simpsons on the big screen. He will love it and feel special, and we will make a point of not mentioning that he truly can at times be a complete demon and requires some very firm handling. Definitely not something we will be discussing! I am sure he will behave perfectly for us and the challenges that face my DD will not be ours today as he will be on his best behaviour - and she is having a nice break!

I have to say I would have been shocked also if my DD behaved in this way,I understand wholeheartedly how boisterious little one's can get when they are getting ready for bed etc,but I would have calmed things down before getting them dressed so they where more relaxed,at 4 and 2.1/2 they are still babies and shouldn't be smacked it is a sign in my opinion that a parent has lost control but people will make their own opinion's on that I'm affraid.
Can you not talk quietly to your DS and tell him the conversation you had with your DGS or would your DS take offence,if my DD or DS raised their hands to any of my DGCs I would want to know why.

I just think that it is not possible to put oneself in the shoes of a parent of two boisterous little boys and of the pressures these parents may feel under - we cannot say what we "would have" done. I am sure your DIL can think of a lot of things she would like to have done if she had not felt under pressure/tired etc.

Maybe the best thing you can do is just to offer to take one child off her hands now and again (as often as you are able) to give her a chance to feel less pressured and have time to enjoy one or other of the children in peace. Having a quiet word risks rows and alienation - maybe actions would speak louder than words and be more useful in the long run.

Some people struggle with parenthood and need quiet backup to help them to find ways of enjoying this stage of their lives.

No-one would condone smacking and it is sad when it happens. Taking some of the pressure off them might help prevent it happening.

I remember when I had an 18 month old who was making it very clear by her behaviour that she did not appreciate the arrival of a new baby sister, a friend came round and I was quite at the end of my tether and I shouted at my DD. My friend said nothing, but just turned up the next day and said she had a day off and would I like her to take the children off my hands for the day so I could have a rest. It was the right action at the right time and I have always remembered her tact and generosity of spirit.

Sometimes getting yourself heard over the racket that two boisterous boys make can be quite a challenge. A few weeks ago, at 7.15 pm, I asked my twin grandsons to put on their PJs as it was bedtime, and they carried on charging round excitedly. After several increasingly louder bellows, they stopped and one of them reprimanded me 'YOU aren't supposed to shout at us, nana!' I'll be needing a loud hailer soon

My twin GDs (6) have been known to say to me "Nana, there's no need to shout!" when I've had to resort to doing so because they've ignored my previous polite requests that they turn the volume down/stop hitting each other/get their shoes on!

I shouted at the two DGC with last week, trying to get them ready for school, it was the only way to be heard over their ructions they are 5 and 7. I was disgusted at myself, I sent gillybob a message as I was beside myself and said I am a really bad Grandma I have shouted at the DGC this morning!!!

when I am goiing to invest in a loud hailer I am hoarse .

It always sounds worse from the "outside" though doesn't it? I find it hard to see DD and SIL even telling DGS off and they do it VERYgently and reasonably - I just prefer not to be there. Being in the middle of it is different though and I think most of us would agree deep down that a smack did little harm in the "bad old days" - I am NOT talking about a "beating" or "thrashing" but a smack to the bottom or leg administered as a short sharp shock. As for how I used to shout at ours, well, I am human and was often at the end of my rope!!
But with the benefit of hindsight and too many years I would be very upset indeed if I felt that the DGC were ever frightened of their parents. I am sure yours are not,flower - try not to dwell on it. They are loved!

Mishap your friend sounds a wise and wonderful person - how perceptive of her - a true friend!

I was shocked last week to witness an episode at the other end of the spectrum. I was in a dress shop when a Yummy Mummy came in with a small boy, aged about 5 and his Granny. Granny clearly had mobility problems and was walking very slowly and leaning heavily on two sticks. Small boy made a bee line for the one and only chair and refused to move to let Granny sit down, despite being offered several inducements. He continued to sit there and Granny continued to lean on her sticks while Yummy Mummy tried on dresses. Eventually YM bent over small boy and told him she was very disappointed in his behaviour,; water off a duck's back!

I felt sorry for all parties, Granny because it was clear she was in pain, YM because she had no idea how to handle her offspring, and small boy because I fear he is in great danger of turning into a nasty, indulged brat.

Flowersofthewest .... this is diffficult, isn't it. My own GS is too young yet to have reached any sort of naughty behaviour, but I went through a similar issue with my niece.

The thing that I find worrying is not that their mother shouted (I was a noisy mother! ....the children actually knew I was really cross or upset if I became very quiet) but that your GS describes himself as "bad". I was terribly upset when my great nephew told me he was a bad boy (age about 6).

I don't think it is ever too young to differentiate between being a "bad" person and being a good person who sometimes does naughty things.....and it is this aspect that I might be inclined to open as a friendly discussion with your DS and/or DIL .... from the standpoint of "I was a bit worried the other day ....DGS told me he was a bad boy". Nothing accusatory, not commenting on their approach to parenting, and certainly not telling them they are doing anything wrong .....just genuine concern that he would think that about himself.
This is the way I approached it with my niece, and it did actually work. In a calm chat over coffee (rather than in the middle of an upset) she was horrified that her beloved child would think such a thing .... and she did change the way she spoke about naughty behaviour.

Just my spin.

Dresden .... I wouldn't feel in the slightest bit sorry for the Yummy Mummy. I hold my hand up to being a bit old fashioned, but in my book, that was quite simply lousy parenting. However, I am sure she will be the first to cry "why" when she has zero control over him as a teenager!

Dresden I think the bad parenting came from the Granny via daughter.
If I'd been in pain I would have made the child move pretty damn quick!

To reiterate it was not a shout it was a BELLOW - like something I had never heard before.

The boys are well loved and just normal boisterous little boys.

My Dil had set herself up by saying in front of them "Don't go yet, they always play up when I put their PJs on, they won't if you are here" big mistake!! Children behave how they are expected to behave and they certainly did. Not shouting or screaming but just falling around and being silly. She hadn't even begun to put the older one's pjs on when she grabbed him and bellowed at him.

I do offer and give help often, we take the boys off their hands to give them space and 'me' time. I offered to put the little ones pjs on but she declined. My DS offered but she said no. She will not take any help in the house, he is not allowed to washup, cook or do much of anything. He is very domesticated but my DiL prefers to do it all herself then becomes stressed and over anxious. I love her and as I have said help as much as we can.

I do not question my DGS and would never ask about what goes on at home. He offered the information and I only asked how he felt when he was smacked as he obviously wanted to tell me. I have 9 grandchildren ranging from 2-16 and have never never interferred in their upbringing.

Fields: I don't thing my DS would appreciate it and would see it a being judgemental. I did say tho the other day that if he always told my DGS that he was the naughty one it is a self fulfilling prophecy and he would be or act naughty. He seemed to take it on board but it hasn't made any difference.

Petra, I have heard her shout but this was so different.

Can you all honestly say you never shouted or bellowed at your children when they were young? I know I did and recently asked son and daughter if they remembered and they did not !

That is interesting seasider - I certainly hold my hand up to shouting at my 3 when the going got tough; and one of them had a smack from me.

I'm not particularly proud of this, but do not beat myself up about it as I know I am only human. They knew (and know) how much they were/are loved and that was what mattered. But, when I mention these things to them, they too cannot remember them! - so it cannot have done them a huge amount of harm.

Mine can't remember me bellowing at them, but they did know I would not be pleased about unacceptable behaviour and refer to my 'look' which apparently could curdle milk!

A friend of mine was directing our local drama group and all the cast were messing about. Finally she had had enough and yelled at them to grow up and get back to work. Her son, who was about 12, gazed at her in amazement and said "You used the MUMMY voice to them!" I don't know how often she had used it at home, but it certainly worked on grown ups.

For crying out loud remember when we were kids and we would be spanked for bad behavior. Shouting is mild!

My GC dissolve into tears if I raise my voice, the cry goes out " Grandma spoke sternly to me " If they only knew, my mother used to chase me with the broom because the handle was longer than her arms

I did shout, yes, not BELLOW. I suppose one would have to be in the situation to know how shocking it was. I am not easily shocked having had 5 children myself. Talk about can of worms! And Grumpy: There is no excuse whatsoever for hitting a child. The word is often disguised as spanking. If you 'spanked' a person in the street for bad behaviour you would surely be arrested.

I admit I did hit (ok smack) my youngest once when he and the little boy I was childminding (led by my son) were running up and down the room pulling the leaves off my indoor plants. I told him several times. The last time he ran past me I smacked his leg. He stopped short and said "What was that called you did?" I did not have to use physical methods to 'control' my children. Don't know why, I supposed it was following my parents' example as I was never smacked either. My mother did once swipe a wet tea towel across my legs when I cheeked her at about 12 years of age. It was so rare I remember it. My father was a gentle but firm man and I just didn't want to disappoint him so did as I was told. My best friend on the other hand was terrified of her father who was a strict disciplinarian and ruled with an iron fist.

BTW Doesn't the word Discipline come from Disciple which surely means to follow?

Just a thought, could it be PMT. We all joke with my DD that we have to wear crash helmets when Its ' her time'