Are our views always entrenched?

BAnanas - I did try to get a pleasant debate going. I am giving up now, as I can see my posts will be misread in the usual way.
Pity - I would really have liked to hear from some members why they feel the Conservatives have got it right - perhaps they are all at work.
It was precisely to get away from the stereotyping that I wanted to hear the other side's views.

The nature of party politics and the electoral system in the UK forces us, the electorate, into taking sides when possibly most of us aren't wholeheartedly committed to one party rather than another.

granjura, couldn't agree more, not all socialists have the monopoly on caring and being magnanimous, not all Tories are hard hearted capitalists, not all Christians behave in a Christian like way, being an atheist doesn't mean you will care less about your fellow man. These parameters are too narrow. I suspect those who haven't jumped into this discussion just aren't around this time of the day. I'm only here at the moment to look at Denise Knowles comments. For me engaging in on line discussion depends entirely on my mood. Sometimes if I feel strongly about something I will post, but don't always want to be drawn into arguments on the political and religious spectrum when you know you aren't going to agree on what is often a personal opinion, it can be futile. For example, I completely understand why some here are atheists and respect that, it makes just as much sense not to believe, but it's not for me, that's it really.

No personal animosity, and no personal insults in my post Greatnan. And if you perceive such, then it might explain why many posters would hesitate to post.

We are printing money, right now, and by the bucket load, day in, day out. And it can't go on.

So who comes first- families or older people when it comes to social housing? I know the reply should be neither, I totally agree - but what do WE DO NOW FOR ALL THOSE FAMILIES LIVING IN BEDSITS?

One solution for people who want to stay put in larger houses (and we are NOT talking about OAPs here- can we at least agree about this) - would be to encourage people with extra room to take on a lodger, or a mum with a child- sensitively of course, matching people carefully and with support. It could actually be great for those people to have company and help around the place, and solve 2 problems. We certainly had to do this when our girls went to Uni- we took 2 lodgers to pay for their studies and accom elsewhere - and it was great fun. Some of our lodgers are still good friends to this day. We have to think outside those boxes - and stop this constant, divisive and destructive swing between left and right which get us nowhere.

As i said before, the majority of us perhaps come from backgrounds where one party, one culture, one religion - etc prevailed. I am very glad to say that right from birth, I had to grow up surrounded by people from different religions, different backgrounds, different everything - where you just cna;t grow up saying 'THE rich are bad' THE poor are lazy scoungers', 'THE Catholics are such and such, and the Protestants are blablabla. No insults - nothing personal - you asked, I answer.

What an interesting thread this is. I'm definitely with others who say let's discuss everything, and it isn't goading to encourage discussions on faith or politics. We only need to join in if we want to, and to a level with which we're comfortable - at least that's my impression of gransnet so far. (I was a bit shocked by the level of anger/vitriol on some of the posts on the LTB site.
Granjura, lots of good points in your post for me. I agree we need to talk about how we manage the money as a society. Whilst I'm more cross with multi national tax avoiders, I have been exposed to rather more benefit exploitation than I would have liked.
I am uncomfortable with what seems like a growing expectation that older people should move out of their family homes because of under occupation. We need more social housing, more affordable and supported housing. My sisters and I managed to support mum in my parents 3 bedroom family home until 3 weeks before she died, despite frailty, failing sight, hearing and other age related difficulties. She'd been widowed for several years by then. The comfort of living in the family home, with her memories of family life, my father's impression still somehow around her, the furniture, garden and most importantly, her elderly dog were all important in helping us maintain mum in the home she loved. When she had to go into a nursing home for assessment, we felt she simply gave up. We took her dog in to visit and the way they greeted each other brought tears to her daughters, as well as to the staff. She died within 3 weeks of going in for assessment. One of my sisters believes that mum gave up, as she understood she couldn't manage at home any longer.
As a generic social worker for many years, I have memories of elderly people, determined to remain in their own homes, despite the anxiety of their relatives who almost always felt residential care to be the safest option. None of the people I visited wanted to leave their own homes, which were what would now be called "under occupied" but were homes in which long and full lives had been lived, so held important memories.
I love our family home, so many memories of family life, the children growing up, my parents alive and well, dogs dogs and more dogs, my garden full of plants given to me by people I love. I'd be the mad woman barricading herself into her home if some bright spark politician decided our much loved 4 bedroom and therefore under occupied home was to be taken from me. I'm lucky, we've been able to buy our home. If it was privately rented we couldn't afford to stay here. If it was social housing we would have to move out to make way for young families who are waiting for a place big enough for them. Complicated isn't it

Another good post granjura. The decisions which need to be made are hard, whoever makes them, and perhaps an overview is necessary for those decision makers as they would never make the decisions if they got bogged down in the detail. It does all seem much more difficult than it used to be because so many attitudes have changed over the years and not always for the better.

I did hope we could have a mature discussion without personal animosity creeping in. I ran a small business and certainly said nothing against them.
Unclaimed benefits amount to much more than is lost to fraudulent claims.
Nobody has suggested we print money - just that the usual targets of single mothers, large families, the unemployed and the sick/disabled should not bear an unfair share of the burden.
Billions are still being spent on arms procurement - much of it wasted. More is spent on an army of advisors and consultants. Contracts are awarded to companies that are manifestly inefficient but presumably have the right contacts.
The cutting of legal aid in family disputes will mean that the party with the most finance available, usually the husband, will have better access to justice.
The bedroom tax is just another way of punishing those in social housing - they can't downsize because there are not smaller units available.
Even the right wing press regularly prints stories of people whose lives have been ruined by the wrong decisions made by ATOS.
If I am wrong to object to these policies, will somebody please tell me why - without resorting to personal insults.

We just need to stop thinking in boxes - Labour or Tory - it is outdated, divisive and gets us NOWHERE.

But there are also out there some labour voters and socialists, humanists, etc, who can see that savings have to be made, that we are in a mess, and that somebody has to pay- and that constantly attacking anyone with entrepreneurial ambitions is not helpful. We need people who will pay high taxes, because this is what pays for the NHS, education, welfare, etc. So it is essential that we tackle tax fraud and evasion, and close the loopholes - but if has to be done carefully has in this world economy, it is easy for big business to just go elsewhere - this is already very apparent and clear. We must strive to keep banking and big business in the UK, but also ensure that fair taxes are paid. Again, I do find it hard to hear people criticizing those big businesses, and then not hesitate to use them for convenience???

And it is difficult to discuss those issues if people take everything said on a personal basis. Take the bedroom 'tax' (which is NOT a tax at all btw) - irrespective of one's personal or familial circumstances - we have to take stock of the PRESENT situation and weigh out difficulties. We can all argue about who was wrong to sell council housing and not replace, and not forecast future needs, etc. But we are now suck with what we've got in the short term - and irrespective of personal or familial situtations - weigh out all the facts. And yes, including costs. So, would it be more detrimental for a few older people (and the ruling does NOT even consider this for OAPs) to have to move to smaller accommodation - or for families to have to stay and live in bedsits and B&Bs - which is awful and unbearable for them (and yes, COSTS A BOMB)? If we take personal friends and family out of the equation, and reply cool headedly and with a heart, the answer has to be that families with young children should be given priority. Of course, ideally and in longer term, older people should be moved into newly built and suitable accom. together as a community - but as tough as it may seem for some, families and children come first- and at the moment they do not, at huge social and educational cost. Just one example.

I'm quite sure that I'm not the only person who is of the opinion that politics and religion are the two subjects that cause the majority of "heated debates" which then result in unpleasant exchanges. Far better to keep your own council.

Good post granjura

ceesnan

I am baffled. All I have done is invite people to a debate about which policies they embrace and which they don't like. I have stated my own personal viewpoint as honestly as possible. I wasn't pretending to have the answers to the problems of the world, although I do think that reducing the top rate of tax whilst cutting benefits was misguided.
There must, surely, be some Conservative voters who don't have a personal vendetta against me and can voice their own opinions in the same courteous manner in which I have voiced mine?

Why goaded?

I have never joined a political party but am broadly 'socialist' in politics. This is because I was brought up to believe that we should treat others as we would want to be treated and for me this equated more closely to socialism/old labour politics. I remember havein huge debates at school and youth clubs about politics n the 60s ad had opportunity to join Young Conservatives etc etc but chose a different route. New labour was a huge disappointment. I have many friends who are also socialist but maybe more entrenched than me. I am able to socialise and mix with people who have radically different views to my own which some friends find hard to do. I enjoy GN because I see the differing views and opinions of others (except on this thread!). I can see how some Labour policies did not not have the desired outcomes in the longer term and I defy any Tory to say all Tory policies did! On the whole I prefer the socialist path.

I was brought up as a Christian (Methodist /Anglican mix) and regularly went to church. I value the cultural heritage I gained from this experience and tbh if I did not have to believe in God I would be a church member as I enjoyed the community it provided! However I was put off organised religion by a miserable old vicar ( I know there are loads of lovely priests too) and then explored other philosophies and ended up as a Humanist!
My younger brother chose to be baptised into the Baptist church at 17 and is a lay preacher and v active in his local baptist church. We get along very well!

As the request/invitation was issued three times with no response I would have thought that it was fairly obvious that people were not going to rise to the bait. Time to move on maybe?

An invitation to discuss different views is not goading, Moved. I genuinely want to read about beliefs that I don't share, and I would appreciate wider discussions than about tories, lefties, atheists and christians. Surely, with 15,000 members, there are some Gransnetters from non-eurocentric cultures who are feisty and want to have their say. I have Muslim and Jewish friends and acquaintances who don't stop for breath when we are together, and they would make fantastic contributions on here, were they to join. I would add, no matter what we disagree on, we have so much more in common, here on Gransnet.

Well I'm a Christian, and I responded... I didn't feel goaded. Just an interesting request for responses from everyone.

Goaded? Because I would like them to share their views? What a strange way of looking at things.

Most of us who've always been on the 'side of justice and fair treatment for the poor, etc' realised a long time ago that Old Labour was doomed- and were delighted when New Labour was elected. Then we got into this awful war, and things changed. It would be interesting to know what would have happened if the Irak situation had not happened.

But it is all very nice wanting justice and fair treatment for all - but it has to be balanced. Most of us have realised that it is 'easy' to just sit in opposition all the time, carping about this and that. But if we want a great NHS, a great education system and social welfare, the money has to come from somewhere. Who is going to pay for it at the end of the day. So constantly tearing apart anybody who has the oomph, gumption, guts and intelligence to put a good business together, give employment to many, pay good taxes, and yes, make a few and more bob on the way, is not going to cut the mustard.

As said before, we can all agree that the *ankers got us in this mess- and agree that NO, we are not 'all in this together' at the same level - and yet, also agree that we are in a mess, and that something has to be done- and just as with the Unions, things have to be shaken up, so that welfare and benefits truly go to those who deserve it most. We can't just go on printing more and more money we haven't got - and somehow many things will have to be tackled. Tax fraud and evasion first, of course. But cuts will ahve to be made elsewhere too, and benefits will have to be revised to ensure fraud is tackled at that end too. Even Labour agrees that will just have to be done- no way around it. And yes- we can't on the one hand say that families matter, including those with many children - and then say that they should live in single room bedsits and hotels- whilst older people stay in over large family accommodation. Let's hope Labour if they get in will address the fact that suitable 1 and 2 bed accom need to be built URGENTLY and take into account the needs of older people who do not need their larger houses need to me moved together to keep the community spirit. But sadly, Old Labour principles just will not work in the present situation - and spending has to be cut down and optimized. Not the way it is being attempted now- but more sensitively and with a much better understanding of the real needs out there. But ... is anybody saying we can just keep on printing money ... whoever is responsible for this mess, we are in it - line, hook and sinker - and pretending otherwise is not helping. At all.
But of course sitting on that high fence and saying NO to everything is much easier - tackling the issues and finding solutions in the present mess we are in is an almost impossible task.

Don't think that either the Christians or Tories are going to be goaded this time

Count me in to those adrift from political parties we used to identify with. I was euphoric when New Labour got in and by the time Tony Blair was losing favour, I couldn't find any one party I would feel confident about voting for. I hope Red Ed and co get their act together before the next election, but I really don't like most of them - perhaps Alan Johnson has what it takes?

I wonder how many of us former left-wingers are now homeless in political terms? I also left the Labour Party over Iraq but I was already disillusioned by New Labour. I was in a constituency that changed hands quite often but recent boundary changes mean it's very unlikely any party except Labour will get in here. I no longer think Tory policies are automatically wrong so I suppose in that sense I do support some. I can't think of any at the moment, though! And most still make me spitting mad. Sorry, Greatnan, not a contribution to your inquiry.

Mice you sound very open-minded. I think this is the key to not getting stuck in the mud at any age. A friend and I often talk about what we will be like when we are older, she knows more much older people than I do, including family. She believes we will all get stuck in our ways and insist that meals must be at certain times, shopping on certain days and everything in a routine. I hope she is wrong and suggest that those of our parents age had far more limited lives than we did which has resulted in their need for the routine. DH and I love to do things on impulse, drop plans if someone needs us or if we get a better offer. We eat to fit in with our plans rather than because it is a certain time of day.

Likewise we have changed our priorities as we have matured. We had distinctly different and entrenched political views when we met and both of us have mellowed since and neither of us is now entrenched. The trouble with commenting on things political is that in most cases we really don't know enough to be certain we are right. Yes, if you are a doctor you know enough about that part of the NHS or if you are a teacher you know about your part of education but none of us knows enough to be right about everything any political party does. Yes, we can research a particular subject but even then whatever we read may have been written by someone with an agenda. I think we all know the outcome we would like but how to achieve it is much more difficult! What one of us thinks is common sense appears different to another.

I am more than happy for the debate to be widened, but I would particularly be interested to hear from self-confessed Conservatives why they support the party's policies. I am not looking for an argument - I am genuinely interested in what they think. Or perhaps some former Tory supporters have become as disillusioned as many former Labour voters , including myself, now are.
Come on, right wingers, have your say. (No, I realise you don't have to, before anybody points it out, this is purely an invitation.)

International Socialists. An extreme Trotskyite tendency on the left. Splintered, splintered and splintered again. The SWP was an offshoot and many more. No idea if they still exist. I expect so. Haven't belonged to a political party since I left the Labour Party over Iraq.

What is "IS", mice?

My view of large charities has changed. I think some of them have become too large, with a consequently large bureaucracy. It's not that I don't still support the work they do, but I no longer like all their tactics for achieving the ends they desire. Too often there seems to be the attitude that the end justifies the means. I don't agree with that if the means is, for example, intrusive (call centre fundraising and chugging), or if the charity gets too involved in politics.

It's quite a difficult feeling to deal with, this gut feeling that all is not well with certain charity activities and attitudes to their donors, but it is a gut feeling that all is not well and it is significant because it makes me unwilling to continue donating to charities whose work I support but whose fundraising activities I deplore.