Are our views always entrenched?

It only takes two people listening to each other, doesn't it? Entrenched positions and defensiveness aren't necessary when you are patient and kind. I think I have guessed which Gransnetter you're referring to, and it's a pleasure to debate things with her because she doesn't get personal

Being rigid about anything is a sign of giving in to old age imho. I also try to be OK about religious belief in others, because I tried to have belief myself for a long time, until I finally admitted to myself that religion just doesn't 'take' on me. I understand the social and traditional aspect of religion, and understand why it would be hard to give that up.

With politics though, my life experience has led me to remain left wing, because I have seen over the years the harm to ordinary people that right wing policies can do. When I was young, I tried to go away from these views because they were my parents' politics, but my investigations, when I was trying to become a Tory, just made me more of a Labour supporter. Over the years. I have been horrified at the way most of the press supports the right wing and distorts news that would support the left.

So, I've ended up a dyed-in-the-wool, somewhat cynical left wing atheist.

But I'm open to argument......

I am with you on the political front, Joan! There is nothing anybody could tell me that would make me view this bunch of rich, privileged and selfish Old Etonians in any good light. I have noticed that the right wing supporters we had on Gransnet have been conspicuously quiet about some of the latest daft proposals - can it be that they also have 'seen the light'?

The usual argument was 'It started under Labour'....but as I have as much contempt for Blair and his merry men as I have for Cameron, that was just another case of two wrongs not making a right.

Me too, Joan. I still go into churches, otherwise I wouldn't be part of other people's important ceremonies. I went to a christening last Sunday, heard the vicar say that baptism was the most important day in a Christian's life, read the 500 year old hymns whilst others were singing them (they had the date underneath them) and wondered about the relevance of religion to each person there in the church, the majority of whom only step foot in churches for the same reason as me.

I knew one person who said she would not attend a Church wedding because it was hypocrisy and she put her principles before her family's hurt feelings. I thoroughly enjoyed my grandson's wedding and the only reason I didn't join in the hymns is because I am tone deaf and would have ruined them. I didn't grill my grand-daughter-in-law about her religious beliefs!
I make a bee-line for the cathedrals or old churches in every town I visit, as I enjoy the architecture and the atmosphere - and they are usually a good starting off point for the historic town centres.

My dad's principle's got in the way of him being with his family when they would have appreciated his support. My lovely grandad gave me away when I got married (ex wanted church wedding), whilst dad stood outside in the snow. His loss!

Principles you silly iPad!

Greatnan I'm an agnostic Tory!! I try not to get involved in some of the political/religious 'discussions' that take place on Gransnet, but it doesn't mean that I'm not as passionate about my beliefs as any leftwing atheist. I just think people are entitled to have their own beliefs - whether political or religious - but I don't have to agree with them.

I think that views can change - otherwise why would anyone bother to exchange them? However some attitudes such as bigotry, prejudice and cynicism, that make education or enlightenment difficult, can be quite entrenched. However, life experiences can even change those. Is that not what being human is all about?

This is a heartening thread

I read some reviews of the recent Thatcher biographies the other day. (Haven't got round to reading any of the books!) I'm glad Greatnan has asked this question because several of the reviews mentioned the fact that Margaret Thatcher's view of the world was formed when she was at high school and I've been thinking about it ever since. How can you still see the world exactly as you did at 16 or 18? Or perhaps you have to have that unshaken outlook if you are going to end up in a position of such power? No room for ambivalence or doubt!

Janthea, I agree with your position, although I may be opposed to your opinions! I state my position as a left-wing humanist and respect yours as an agnostic tory.

Greatnan you said:
^knew one person who said she would not attend a Church wedding because it was hypocrisy and she put her principles before her family's hurt feelings. I thoroughly enjoyed my grandson's wedding and the only reason I didn't join in the hymns is because I am tone deaf and would have ruined them. I didn't grill my grand-daughter-in-law about her religious beliefs!
I make a bee-line for the cathedrals or old churches in every town I visit, as I enjoy the architecture and the atmosphere - and they are usually a good starting off point for the historic town centres. ^

Yes, I'm the same - I would never say i won't go into a church 'cos I'm an atheist. I'd go to all the family celebrations, whether church, synagogue, mosque or temple or registry office. Anyway, churches are often beautiful, and I love stained glass windows and historical architecture. Here in the sub tropics, churches can give a welcome respite from the heat, too.

It seems to me that we start out holding our views on all sorts of things without really understanding why or questioning if what we believe is correct. Some people stick to those views and never change while some people ask questions and either keep their original view or adopt new ones based on different information.

I wish more people were willing to ask questions and exchange ideas peacefully. There might be fewer wars...

I'm not very interested in politics although I try to keep informed. I'm not a believer either but I'm always curious about those with faith and grateful when someone is willing to talk to me without an agenda. I like to ask questions and by doing so I've had to drop some of my ideas for being wrong and I hope that I'll continue to question and revise as long as I'm alive.

I have changed my political beliefs hugely over the years, and I think my beliefs in many other things as my knowledge has grown. I can only say that it's all down to the internet. I can see how other people think, what they believe, what has been written from all perspectives, whereas when I was at school or college then maybe I would have had two copies on any subject to choose from in the library and the occasional probably biased newspaper article.

I've never known anyone who would not go to a Church wedding because of their principles. But I personally would not have married in Church, as to me such an important day should not be based on lies- and out of respect for the Vicar/Priest who would have to perform ritual based on such lies. Very different I think. One of our daughters got married in Church due to pressure from fil and mil- and I did discuss this with her, but of course attended and supported her all the way on the day, as it was her choice, of course. However, I do feel uncomfortable being part of a 'lie', where words are said, promises made, knowing full well that such are not believed in. I cannot understand why, in UK where it is now possible and legal to get married in amazing and alternative venues, like Castles, Old Halls, etc - that people still choose to get married in Church if they are not believers. Why? I don't get it. I do here where I live now, as the Registry Office is the only alternative (and everybody has to have both, the Registry Office being the only legal venue).

I've attended Baptisms too - but always refused to be a Godparent, as I would have had to make promises I knew full well I wouldn't fulfill.

I often wonder if people's entrenched views are due to limited access to people from different backgrounds. In my family and OH's family, we have about 5 different Christian faiths- and also a massive span of political views, from extreme left, to Conservatives with a big C. That means you have to constantly weigh attitudes and opinions. If someone comes from one religious group for generations, and from one political affiliation for generations - then it takes a lot of effort and thought to change- and even to perceive other ways of thinking or doing.

I am glad such a diverse background has 'kept me on my toes' from very young - always having to think for myself rather than accept 'the norm' around me, as there was none!

Forgot to say that OH's grandad was a convert to Islam, and that many of our family in South AFrica are Muslims, including one who is an Imam.
And having lived for such a long time in Leicester, we have many good friends who are Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims too.

DH will go into churches but won't say prayers. A week ago we were at a funeral with only a few attending so we needed all the voices we could get. I told him to grow up. Still rebelling at his time of life!

About Godparents.

My Mum's best friend Anne when I was born was Jewish - not very religious though. Mum, unthinkingly, asked her to be my Godmother, which Anne had to refuse. So I got a different Godmother, but Anne became a sort of de facto Godmother, taking an interest in me as I grew up. She ran a clothing shop and would take me regularly to the wholesale warehouse for new clothes. Those places were like Aladdin's caves back then in the 1950s. Many years later I learned that 'getting it wholesale' was a typical Jewish experience.

(And many more years later I found out my biological Grandfather was Jew of Russian origin, not the Liverpool Irishman who married Grandma when Mum was 2, who I'd always assumed to be my Grandfather. So it's a good job none of us were ever picky about race or religion!)

Petallus I will go into churches, but won't say prayers or sing hymns, as I don't worship a god. I don't make a big thing of it, I stand and sit with everyone else, and have no problem when we are exhorted to shake hands and say 'peace be with you' because I feel I can genuinely wish that for others. Perhaps your DH has similar views?

I sing hymns in the car. I especially like carols in Latin.

John Maynard Keynes famously said: 'when I get more evidence I sometimes change my mind. What do you do?” which is a good reason for not having entrenched ideas at any age.

I now espouse political views and social views now that I would not have accepted 40 years ago, others I do still have, but thye are not necessarily entrenched just that nothing I have learnt since has convinced me they need to be re-evaluated

Please does this discussion on a much wider and more interesting theme need to get bogged down into yet another discussion about the minutiae of religion?

I was at a funeral last week where the deceased was not religious, and her daughter had stressed this to the undertakers, who introduced her to a 'suitably willing' vicar.
At the crematorium, the vicar was speaking for quite some time about Jesus on the cross!!
I was quite cross myself!