Are our views always entrenched?

I don't keep 'conspicuously' silent, Petallus. I respect the rights of others to sing, pray or not. I would rather celebrate family and friends' important events somewhere else than a church, but if that's their wish, I don't make a fuss and go along with things so I can be with them. I think I would be less welcome if I made my non-belief conspicuous in front of them. Elsewhere is the place for such debates.

No, 8 years ago. We still live in a very traditional and rural part of the world, and Catholics here still prefer to be buried. Indeed in parts of the country which still is predominantly Catholic, Protestants or other faiths cannot be buried at the local cemetary!

I wonder if there is any right wing member who would be prepared to do what my Christian friend has done - i.e. explain which policies they like, and why, and which ones they think are not so good. Perhaps we should start by defining our terms. When I say I am left-wing, I mean I care deeply about social justice, I think the state should care for the most vulnerable and least successful citizens, that justice should be free for all (which is why I feel so strongly about legal aid being removed in many family break up cases), that it is quite right for there to be laws against discrimination on the grounds of colour, race, sexuality, religion, or disability. I do not condone fraud, or irresponsible or criminal behaviour, but I think prison should attempt rehabilitation and education, and that prisoners should not be humiliated in addition to losing their freedom.
I think the cabinet should represent all sections of society, which it clearly does not at the moment.
Do our Conservative members feel that it was wise to cut the top rate of tax for the better off? Are they happy with the way ATOS seems to be working?
Are they aware that libraries, playing fields, swimming pools and playgrounds are being lost every week.
I know there is a world-wide recession, caused in part by the very poor regulation of the banks which occurred under both the last Labour government and this present government. However, I don't believe 'We are all in it together' - quite clearly,some people are still doing very nicely whilst others - the sick and disabled, the unemployed, single mothers, people in social housing, are afraid of the future.

I am more than ready to have all these statements challenged but not in the way of personal insults, please (I have been told too often that I am a loony lefty without anybody explaining what that means).

Surely we can debate these issues in a civilised and courteous manner, without either side taking offence. I won't say my views will be changed, but I won't rule out some better understanding of what it is about the Conservative party that people find desirable.

granjura that must have been a long time ago. The Vatican lifted its ban on cremation in 1963. My father was one of a large and deeply catholic family. My grandparents were interred in 1966 and 1970 but every one since, and there have been many, has been cremated.

granjura that must have been a long time ago. The Vatican lifted its ban on cremation in 1963. My father was one of a large and deeply catholic family. My grandparents were interred in 1966 and 1970 but every one since, and there have been many, has been cremated.

And that is of course absolutely fine, if you don't care. But wouldn't you expect children to respect the wishes of a parent? As if they want to give organs, or their body to science. Or .. whatever. My cousin's daughter fell our with his sister after he died. He had asked to be cremated, quite clearly and firmly, although he was a sincere CAtholic - but his sister said he must not be cremated, as according to the Catholic Church 'he needs his body for the resurrection!!! They had a huge ding dong and the girls said his wishes were paramount, and went ahead.

when H is an atheist, same as me. I used to do all the keeping conspicuously silent stuff when I was in my 50s, twenty years on and I've got over it and don't mind saying the odd prayer out of respect for the deceased.

Once I'm dead how I am disposed of will be of no interet to me. I feel my family should decide on whatever will suit them best and meet their needs.

Ella46, who were you cross with I wonder? To ask a Vicar to not talk about Jesus, the after life, etc, at a Christian funeral, is a bit much I think. Why ask a Vicar to do the ceremony at all, and the deceased was not religious??? This is what would make me cross, perhaps- not the Vicar. The Vicar believes in all that stuff, however it may seem strange to many of us- and it is his job to do a ceremony that reflects the beliefs of the Church he represents - not stand there with his fingers crossed behind his back? Surely?

Many of my friends are deeply and sincerely Christian- isn't it 'demeaning' of their faith to hijack it for social/cultural whatever means? Isn't it disrespectful for those present for whom the words and liturgy means something deeply religious and important to their lives? I think so- but I know many do not understand my point of view.

Our local Vicar is a really nice guy. As we've bought the old vicarage (the Church desperately needed money) and still welcome the elderly people from the village for the monthly luncheon, which he attends - we've got very friendly with him. We've discussed weddings. baptisms, funerals and first communions (still very popular here as big presents are given!) - and he, as have other very friendly Vicars I've known in the past, here and in UK- that it is very painful and difficult to hold ceremonies week in, week out - knowing that the participants are not believers in any way, shape or form, let alone not Church goers.

He was telling me the other day, the popular request these days is for a 'nice funeral please Vicar, but none of this religious stuff, will you'? I always cringe when you go to the funeral of a friend who you knew to be a staunch atheist and here all that Valley of Death and life Eternal, etc. I can feel them turning in the coffin. My instructions for my funeral are VERY clear, no Church, no Vicar and no lies on my grave.

I have changed all my beliefs over the years, about religion and politics.
My father was a lapsed Catholic and my mum was a Christian.
I started out being confirmed into the CofE, but by the time I was in my late teens I decided I was an agnostic.
Later I became an athiest, and now I would say I am an agnostic athiest.

However, I would really love to be able to believe in a god/father figure, who encompassed us all in love. I think a lot of us are maybe searching for something.

We organise our own funerals, music, speakers, the lot. Easier, cheaper and everyone involved knew the deceased well. You do not need to have an outside celebrant; religious or humanist.

I was at a funeral last week where the deceased was not religious, and her daughter had stressed this to the undertakers, who introduced her to a 'suitably willing' vicar.
At the crematorium, the vicar was speaking for quite some time about Jesus on the cross!!
I was quite cross myself!

John Maynard Keynes famously said: 'when I get more evidence I sometimes change my mind. What do you do?” which is a good reason for not having entrenched ideas at any age.

I now espouse political views and social views now that I would not have accepted 40 years ago, others I do still have, but thye are not necessarily entrenched just that nothing I have learnt since has convinced me they need to be re-evaluated

Please does this discussion on a much wider and more interesting theme need to get bogged down into yet another discussion about the minutiae of religion?

I sing hymns in the car. I especially like carols in Latin.

Petallus I will go into churches, but won't say prayers or sing hymns, as I don't worship a god. I don't make a big thing of it, I stand and sit with everyone else, and have no problem when we are exhorted to shake hands and say 'peace be with you' because I feel I can genuinely wish that for others. Perhaps your DH has similar views?

About Godparents.

My Mum's best friend Anne when I was born was Jewish - not very religious though. Mum, unthinkingly, asked her to be my Godmother, which Anne had to refuse. So I got a different Godmother, but Anne became a sort of de facto Godmother, taking an interest in me as I grew up. She ran a clothing shop and would take me regularly to the wholesale warehouse for new clothes. Those places were like Aladdin's caves back then in the 1950s. Many years later I learned that 'getting it wholesale' was a typical Jewish experience.

(And many more years later I found out my biological Grandfather was Jew of Russian origin, not the Liverpool Irishman who married Grandma when Mum was 2, who I'd always assumed to be my Grandfather. So it's a good job none of us were ever picky about race or religion!)

DH will go into churches but won't say prayers. A week ago we were at a funeral with only a few attending so we needed all the voices we could get. I told him to grow up. Still rebelling at his time of life!

Forgot to say that OH's grandad was a convert to Islam, and that many of our family in South AFrica are Muslims, including one who is an Imam.
And having lived for such a long time in Leicester, we have many good friends who are Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims too.

I've never known anyone who would not go to a Church wedding because of their principles. But I personally would not have married in Church, as to me such an important day should not be based on lies- and out of respect for the Vicar/Priest who would have to perform ritual based on such lies. Very different I think. One of our daughters got married in Church due to pressure from fil and mil- and I did discuss this with her, but of course attended and supported her all the way on the day, as it was her choice, of course. However, I do feel uncomfortable being part of a 'lie', where words are said, promises made, knowing full well that such are not believed in. I cannot understand why, in UK where it is now possible and legal to get married in amazing and alternative venues, like Castles, Old Halls, etc - that people still choose to get married in Church if they are not believers. Why? I don't get it. I do here where I live now, as the Registry Office is the only alternative (and everybody has to have both, the Registry Office being the only legal venue).

I've attended Baptisms too - but always refused to be a Godparent, as I would have had to make promises I knew full well I wouldn't fulfill.

I often wonder if people's entrenched views are due to limited access to people from different backgrounds. In my family and OH's family, we have about 5 different Christian faiths- and also a massive span of political views, from extreme left, to Conservatives with a big C. That means you have to constantly weigh attitudes and opinions. If someone comes from one religious group for generations, and from one political affiliation for generations - then it takes a lot of effort and thought to change- and even to perceive other ways of thinking or doing.

I am glad such a diverse background has 'kept me on my toes' from very young - always having to think for myself rather than accept 'the norm' around me, as there was none!

I have changed my political beliefs hugely over the years, and I think my beliefs in many other things as my knowledge has grown. I can only say that it's all down to the internet. I can see how other people think, what they believe, what has been written from all perspectives, whereas when I was at school or college then maybe I would have had two copies on any subject to choose from in the library and the occasional probably biased newspaper article.

It seems to me that we start out holding our views on all sorts of things without really understanding why or questioning if what we believe is correct. Some people stick to those views and never change while some people ask questions and either keep their original view or adopt new ones based on different information.

I wish more people were willing to ask questions and exchange ideas peacefully. There might be fewer wars...

I'm not very interested in politics although I try to keep informed. I'm not a believer either but I'm always curious about those with faith and grateful when someone is willing to talk to me without an agenda. I like to ask questions and by doing so I've had to drop some of my ideas for being wrong and I hope that I'll continue to question and revise as long as I'm alive.

Greatnan you said:
^knew one person who said she would not attend a Church wedding because it was hypocrisy and she put her principles before her family's hurt feelings. I thoroughly enjoyed my grandson's wedding and the only reason I didn't join in the hymns is because I am tone deaf and would have ruined them. I didn't grill my grand-daughter-in-law about her religious beliefs!
I make a bee-line for the cathedrals or old churches in every town I visit, as I enjoy the architecture and the atmosphere - and they are usually a good starting off point for the historic town centres. ^

Yes, I'm the same - I would never say i won't go into a church 'cos I'm an atheist. I'd go to all the family celebrations, whether church, synagogue, mosque or temple or registry office. Anyway, churches are often beautiful, and I love stained glass windows and historical architecture. Here in the sub tropics, churches can give a welcome respite from the heat, too.

Janthea, I agree with your position, although I may be opposed to your opinions! I state my position as a left-wing humanist and respect yours as an agnostic tory.

I read some reviews of the recent Thatcher biographies the other day. (Haven't got round to reading any of the books!) I'm glad Greatnan has asked this question because several of the reviews mentioned the fact that Margaret Thatcher's view of the world was formed when she was at high school and I've been thinking about it ever since. How can you still see the world exactly as you did at 16 or 18? Or perhaps you have to have that unshaken outlook if you are going to end up in a position of such power? No room for ambivalence or doubt!