to all GN's living in France 4 year old boy missing

I think they were right to track the family and find the child; they should have then persuaded the family to take him to hospital in Spain pro tem, and allowed them to be with him.

The British authorities were, imo, over-zealous and I presume the Spanish police acted in accordance with what they had been told.

A question for those of you who think the hospital, and police, acted wrongly.

What would you have thought if Ashya had died during the journey to Spain?

I am not being antagonistic, I just wonder if you would feel differently about the 'civil liberties' of the parents in those circumstances.

Thanks to Elegran, Mishap and janeainsworth for their posts.

I haven't met anyone who doesn't sympathise with the parents, but that doesn't mean supporting the action they took. This little boy is very sick, and I can't see how a journey across Europe could be in his best interests.

I don't think they acted wrongly, the hospital and police were right but over-zealous in my opinion. The CPS were wrong to criminalise the parents.

As it turned out, the journey did him no harm at all. It was outsiders who made it bad for him.

The parents would know the child's capabilities before the journey. They were with him. Perhaps he was sitting up, and perhaps even getting out of bed.

Don't blame the parents.

" he needs to be gently cared for in the love of his family and not hurtling round Europe looking for last ditch efforts to prolong his life at whatever quality"

How do you know what he wants? Stop judging!

I doubt very much that they "hurtled".

This poor little chap is not in a position to express any wishes.

People who have just had brain surgery need gentle handling and proper medical oversight - the journey by car and on a ferry was unwise. That is not to blame the parents - I do not think anyone wishes to do that - but to say that their decision was probably unwise in the circumstances.

Watching the video released by his parents it is clear that he is entirely incapable of "getting out of bed" - he appeared to be unable to move or respond, and was unresponsive to what was going on around him.

Wishing him some peace with his family around him is not judgmental. It is probably the best that can be hoped for for him.

I agree (again) with rosequartz.

If Ashya had died during the journey I would have thought that was tragic but I would still have understood why the parents had felt they had no choice but to act as they did. I agree it was not wise for a little boy who had recently undergone brain surgery to be transported across Europe, but I understand why the parents felt they had to take this chance. They were desperate, and terrified - of losing any say in their son's treatment; of him being forced to have treatment that would either kill him or cause major brain damage; of losing the chance for him to have treatment that they felt, rightly or wrongly, might give him the best chance of partial cure or at least quality of life for his remaining months. These parents do not strike me as being in denial, but seem very realistic about the fact that their son has very little time left and a wish to share that time with him.

To turn your question around janea, if the Wardship proceedings had been carried through and the court had ordered Ashya to have chemotherapy and radiotherapy as recommended by the UK doctors, and he had then died, how would the Court have felt? How would his parents have felt? How would those of us who are so sure the agencies involved so far have acted correctly have felt?

As I said before, I have been involved many times in similar scenarios (thankfully not so high profile) and it is only by reflecting afterwards on the actions taken by all the agencies involved that anything can be learned.

Too young to go gentle....

Indeed - but sometimes it is just what happens. Cruel old world sometimes.

nightowl if the Wardship proceedings had been carried through and the court had ordered Ashya to have chemotherapy and radiotherapy as recommended by the UK doctors, and he had then died, how would the Court have felt?
Probably whoever made the judgement would think, 'oh, I did my best according the information I was given. Next case please' and moved on as they are not emotionally involved.

Vulnerable children and vulnerable old people do need to be protected, but the Courts have made some very strange decisions lately and overriden the wishes of concerned and loving parents and children.

This is getting ridiculous all round.

I have been watching Sky and BBC news and one minute the parents are with Aysha, the next minute the parents are being interviewed by the media and are stating they have been refused permission to see Ashya, then we hear they are with him. There does seem to be a case that they cannot take him out of the Spanish hospital but things are turning on a sixpence and to be honest contradictions are happening all the time.

I was saddened to hear the father say the doctors at Southampton hospital were going to kill Ashya or turn him into a vegetable. He said the hospital knew he was taking him out of the hospital that day and he was told Ashya was going to be made a ward of court.

The doctor treating Ashya at Southampton was giving an interview outside the Southampton hospital. He says the parents asked what would happen if they refused treatment and he told them he might be made a ward of court. The doctor says he did not put that forward to the parents, he was answering their question. The doctor was upset that he had been accused by the family of going to kill Ashya or turn him into a vegetable.

I think the thing the one thing the doctor said that made me believe the welfare of Ashya was the concern is he said Ashya had no reflux and if any food or fluid went into his lung he probably would have died. He intimated that had that happened the family could not have dealt with it.

I find statements are being made then something is shown or said that challenges them. It's all very confusing.

I thought the father said that he had said he would take the child away from Southampton but hadn't said when that would be. I agree the whole thing sounds very confused, I had trouble following what the parents were saying about the Spanish hospital's treatment as well.

That's because different things are being said at different times.

The father said the doctors at Southampton were going to kill or turn their son into a vegetable. At another interview the mother said she just wanted to be with her son and wet his lips and turn him every 15 minutes, like she did at Southampton. To me that shows the medical team were being very respectful of the family, maybe that's just me I don't know.

It is certainly interesting when you have too much time on your hands and watch the news hours on end to see the contradictions at every turn. At present BBC are saying they are with Ashya but on Sky you will she the father saying he has not been given permission to see him. Yet the media are covering it in real time.

The media show or print what they think will make a "good" story. Leaving much out.
Only rarely, if ever, do we get the truth.

Well, it seems that his father, at least, has seen Ashya. Apparently he was mistaken in his assumption that he'd be arrested if he tried.

As Ashya's still a ward of Court his parents can't move him and there will have to be further Court proceedings next week. It's certainly dragging on...

Well hopefully a solution can now be found and Ashya can be treated in a hospital that his parents are happy with (presumably not Southampton) for treatment until the proton beam treatment can be sorted out. Better still, it may be really successful and give him both a longer life and a better quality of life.

Parents are with him now, which is at it should be.

Jingle In a television interview the mother was saying the this poor child needs turning every half hour or so as he is unable to move by himself. He is already one very disabled little boy.

I just hope the family can deal with their distress over the illness of their child and find a way of helping him without need for yet more unpleasant and debilitating treatment.

Do you mean they should just give up and allow him to die, Nelliemoser?

Because obviously he's going to need more treatment - all the hospitals/authorities involved will insist on it anyway...

I am most certainly not saying don't give any more treatment because he is disabled.

It is a question of whether or not there is a realistic chance of the child recovering and benefiting.

Chemotherapy has very unpleasant side effects and will probably make the poor child even more ill. He is unable to move, needs turning. What happens when a child who cannot move starts vomiting? Fluid in the lungs etc needs sucking out, more stress and discomfort.

There has to be a consideration of the ethics of this with regard to a reasonable chance of the child's survival.

Read the information at 09:18 today 11:01; 11:09. The father himself @11:25.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2014/sep/03/ashya-king-and-his-parents-to-be-reunited-live-coverage
I do feel for the parents who are so desperate but as others have said raising what the experienced Doctors know to be very vain hopes of "cures" in relatives etc is not helpful.

My own choice for myself if I'm ever that ill would be only for palliative treatment and, yes, to be "allowed to die" sooner rather than later.
So, if that's what his parents want and think is right, why shouldn't they ask for that too? It's not wrong to choose not to have life-prolonging treatment when one is dying anyway.

‘They were going to kill him or turn him into a vegetable’ - just the sort of nonsense headline that has fuelled the fire. Some of these media people make me furious. These are the words of a desperate and sad man and should have been treated as such and not splashed as a headline to whip up emotions.

The British doctors assertion that Ashya needs chemotherapy has been borne out by the second opinion of the Czech doctors and he is being returned to UK for this to happen, as was originally advised. This whole sorry saga has been simply a breakdown in communication from the highly emotionally charged nature of the situation, fuelled of course by the media for whom the words "kidnap" and "dying child" are entirely irresistible.

It would be so good if the family could now be left in peace to engage in discussions with the doctors about what is best for the child. Let us hope that the family themselves will not seek further publicity - it is very seductive to be in demand and on the news.