Is Jenni Murray right about transgender?

A transgender woman can be an "airhead", well just as much as some "real" women can be.
So Jenni's point does not really stand up.

How do you define "airhead", Ankers?

river re your post about the demands for Jenni Murray to be sacked, I also hope the BBC dare not! It would be outrageous, as in any caving in to illiberalism.

ankers, re your point about defining a "proper" woman.... do we need such a definition is what I wonder. Maybe we need "was a male" and "was a woman" words, but I guess that's what many transgender people don't want. They want to be recognised as "proper" whatever they've chosen/feel regardless of biology and actually different physiology. In a hundred years' time maybe we'll have sorted the language out but in the meantime, it's a bit of a fudge. Whatever the case, it's still wrong to want to shut down discussion around the issue.

I dont think we do need a definition.

I find it interesting that she doesnt talk about woman to man. I wonder what she says about that? That they are not real men and never will be?

I agree about not needing a definition, ankers, but then such a definition doesn't affect me personally. Would that recognition of transgender people as just as human as anyone else, whatever their gender/sex orientation, were sufficient. I think we'll get there, just as we have, for the most part, "got there" about homosexuality and bisexualityn relationships.

I'm not sure what I think or feel about this. Gut instinct agrees with JM and GG and do feel pity for people in this situation. What I do feel passionately about though is teaching young, primary age children about all this stuff. They don't need to know and certainly don't need any kind of programming or influence which I think might happen.

Sacked for rational opinions, my goodness me, who actually wants that? Bullies that's who. People who think that their cause entitles them to make everyone else kow down to their world view.

I worked with old ladies at one time, and one of the volunteer helpers had the transition op. He looked very much the same and the old ladies did not want him in the ladies toilets with them, or trying to provide anything personal based upon the change he had undergone. For over 70 years (in a small town) he had been a man.

They used to tell him to 'come back when youve had a period or a baby' and it caused a lot of concern for them (different generational attitudes) officially staff were told that he had to be treated as a woman post op.

That op was his choice and good for him he made it. However other people didn't like it and I believe had the right to say so. Just as Jenni has the right to query the socialisation of gender and the part it plays.

I have read that a woman is having her eggs frozen so that when she has her op she can then be her own sperm donor. Just because we can do things scientifically, do we have to?

Kindness is a must but that cuts all ways (oh dear no pun intended) so many people have the op and are still conflicted, human lives are fragile and comple it is different in every case, just as opinions are.

I think Jenni said that transgender women try to be stereotypical women and concentrate too much on hair, clothes and makeup , whereas most women actuallly wear jeans most of the time and not stilettos. So if a transgender women wanted to be a typical woman she could just wear jeans like the rest of us. So the lived experience of being female is not the same. Transgender women aren't interested in the monthly pain,and low pay of women but seems to be concentrated on the biggger wardrobe options.

I don't agree with no platforming people. It is rude to invite people and then effectively disinvite them and universities are places where people should learn to question and debate.
I also don't understand why people can't disagree and debate without insults, abuse and arrogance. So many people seem to need a reason to feel superior to others.
She may be technically correct but I think it is a bit mean. Transgender people may not have had the same disadvantages and patronising attitudes that women have but it is unlikely that they will not have been made to feel like misfits and have had their own discrimination. It doesn't hurt anyone to let them decide what they want to be called.
One day science will find an explanation for the condition and then people may be less judgmental.

suzied, but does that matter?
Why do they have to be "typical"?

Which is my point really. Women come in all shapes and sizes and attitudes.
Jenni is trying to stereotypify a woman. Why?

You are physically a woman, so are the transgender women. You are emotionally (psychologically?) a woman based on your experiences since childhood, no, babyhood as sexism starts there. It must be difficult for transgender women to replicate that. You may know a gay man you relate to who understands the negativity women endure (in workplace, on the bus etc) because they too have experienced similar bullying. Men who long to be women may have endured bullying too; most minorities have. Bruce Jenner was a big, muscley sporty white guy, so I doubt he got bullied, but he lived in a very female household. I have no idea how he related to the experiences of growing up a girl.

I agree Jaycee5.
I think even Jenni Murray will have changed her own ideas pretty soonish.
And may even be championing the opposite of what she is saying now!

Jenny Murray has extreme political opinions and is a real snowflake about some issues. However, I don't see why she shouldn't have an opinion on this and any other subject she feels informed enough about to hold. It's called free speech and we can join the debate and counter or examine her arguments which will take the subject forward and inform the issue.

I am sick of safe-spacing and no-platforming by an ill informed, inexperienced and politically correct generation which takes its opinions ready packeged from one side of the political spectrum only.

I don't actually think anything is off limits for discussion and I am also wearied by nincompoops who say, 'You CAN'T think that!'

Fascinating subject - I've just listened to a discussion on Women's Hour about the book "Men are from Mars women are from Venus" and if we have moved forward in the last few decades. It would have been very interesting to have had transgender people as part of the discussion.

We have a transgender male to female woman living in our community. She is in her early 40's and was father to 4 children before transitioning with all the surgery that entails. Unfortunately she now wears the most inappropriate clothing-not for her new sex - but for her age. It's as if she's somewhere between her teens and Bet Lynch. She's also become a complete diva. None of this is helping her to become accepted and is doing the transgender community no favours. I've had many a conversation with a gay friend about transgender issues and he says it's about how people perceive themselves, not their biological definition. I agree with those who have said trans women can never have a complete female perspective or understanding as they've been brought up as male. No periods, childbirth, sexual innuendo, job discrimination (I know there shouldn't be but there still is)etc. These women are artificially created with hormones, drugs and surgery. That's fine if that's what makes them feel at peace in their skin, I have no problem with that, but they can never have a complete female perspective as they have been raised as male. Their perspective is what they think women are like. At the end of the day if you analysed the DNA it would still be male.

There's also been an online petition from the transgender community to prevent GG speaking at a women's event in Brighton because of her views. Sorry, freedom of speech, choice and action works across the board. You might not like what she says but she has the right to say it

I think it comes down to someone (like JM) passing judgment on another's sexuality. It's up to the person who owns that body and not for others to opine on. Yes, they can have an opinion, in the same way as some have an opinion on the way Theresa May dresses (just as an example) but when it comes down to it, it's none of their bloody business

in my humble opinion

Absolutely!

A woman is a woman if she feels she is a woman - what would Jenni Murray know about how it feels to be transgender! I consider her comments to be unkind, thoughtless and disrespectful - but not a sacking offence.

Throughout time people have been dissatisfied with the sex they had at birth, castrated males have been called eunuchs for a long time so why call them women? Every cellin their body carries male dna whatever the appearance. XX chromosomes or XY determines sex not outward appearance so really no one can "change their sex" male or female. If people choose to live as a different sex let them, but they have not changed their sex.

Good post Katek
And yes, JM has a right to her opinion of course, as we all do.Being a broadcaster and a journalist does make her pronouncements more 'weighty' with the general public, but we can all feel free to agree or disagree with her.

It seems to me that there are more of these people about now - but maybe it is just that the surgery and medication is more widely available.
Do you think that this has anything to do with the extra female hormones in the water supplies - I have read that these have been found in the water and they are due to the amount of HRT type drugs prescribed to women.
There has always been a wide spectrum of masculinity or femininity in people but it was simply accepted. For all that these people feel they need to change their gender completely it is very few of them who seem to get the whole change correct - I agree what you say about the clothes and hair but it is also how they walk - particularly when wearing high heels.

Intrigued by the transgendered person who wanted eggs frozen to be own sperm donor. 1) how is this possible? 2) is this not potentially dangerous genetically?

I get Jenni's point which is not biological but social. I have 3 women friends who are priests/ministers of religion. All 3 have had to,and still do, fight against gender prejudice all their working lives. It hasn't been easy for them to challenge the status quo but all three are very strong women because of this. The vicar in question hasn't had to do this, although must be experiencing her own problems now.

When it comes down to it, our gender is part of the way we think about ourselves. If transgender people have always thought about themselves as a different gender from what they were originally designation, I can quite appreciate their wanting to transition. Harms no one else. I know a young person currently transitioning into a man, involving not just taking hormones, but having a double mastectomy and full hysterectomy! ? Not easy.

I'm not sure about this one but I can understand that someone who has trasitioned from one sex to another or was born "intersex", might feel hurt by this remark.

Although I'm not particularly keen on Jenni Murray (she always seems rather smug to me), I do have some sympathy with her view on this. And I think the absolute uproar that occurred when Cermaine Greer made a similar remark was over the top. Provided people aren't being disrespectful and sarcastic or stirring up resentment or hatred, I tend to think that they should be able to express an opinion without being demonised.

Whilst I agree with the point that someone made that identifying as a female is more than just a physiological thing, I do think that the physiological element is important. Also, the day-to-day experience of being a woman - at home, in the workplace and in every other area of public and social life - is very different for women.