Gender critical trans woman

Luckygirl .I felt extremely embarrassed, the person concerned clearly was not, a year ago while sitting in the rest room of a London train station waiting for my female friend to come out of the toilet, to observe an intact male, who I had believed to be from outward appearance a female,lift up her skirt to adjust her! tights.
Surely this could have been carried out in the privacy of a toilet so what message was this person attempting to convey.? Who cares what you want to be? your body your life? but is a public display necessary?

I think we all know exactly what this person was up to - to be brutally frank, they probably 'get off' on that sort of behaviour.

Goodness, I was aware of lots of talk of trans people and growing concern about children being 'labelled', but I had not realised just how far this was going. I am concerned that any child which does not conform to some kind of societal standard of gender normality ( cars/football/scuffling about for boys and pink/dolls/kittens for girls) is somehow a potential trans candidate. Surely this is gender stereotyping of the worst kind? I did not like dolls, or pink stuff, as a child, but I am a female heterosexual, married with children. I worked with a man who was 'very much in touch with his feminine side', very gentle, not 'manly' whatever the hell that is, and he is happily married. I have complete sympathy for those pour souls who feel they have been born in the wrong body, and feel that after counselling and advice, the surgical and drug process should be available, but I am baffled when I see people being interviewed, and they say things such as ' I knew I wanted to be a girl from the age of 3' and even have heard 'I knew I was sexually attracted to men when I was 6' 6!! Most 6 year olds of either gender are busy swapping pokemon cards or playing with their fidget spinners FFS.

Hadn't read GoB's post before I posted. An excellent post, thanks GoB. I think I now understand the distinction between sex and gender. So my own post should I think refer to 'sex' not gender. I am very concerned that a minority of the male population (not sure if any females are agitating for the same 'rights') want access to women only spaces and services. Like Maryeliza54, I'd like to lift GOB's helpful post when I write to my MP.

Lucky girl that’s a great post. I have the same worries over young people being pushed one way or another too early.
I have a rooted objection to mixed changing rooms, mixed wards etc. There are probably a very small number of intact males who want to be in female changing rooms for nefarious purposes, but even one is too many. I don’t know what the answer is because even single cubicles are usually just partitions open at the top and bottom.
Regarding labels, heterosexuals never used to use labels.

"In my opinion, some of the radical trans activists are seeing this as 'payback' time for the rise of women." More puzzlement from me - are the folk who are in this category not men wishing to be women? Why would they wish to attack women?

But do they really want to be women?
The law that is being proposed would mean any man could say he is a woman, without any change at all, not even a change of clothing, and everyone will have to believe them.

Annsixty I so agree !!

Have a quick look at Danielle Muscato :

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/4meyzt/danielle_muscato_im_sure_society_treats_her/

Grumpy old bats post has now added much needed clarity to this thread. Thank you.

I have to agree with those who say that the current trend for introducing these transgender concepts into schools is unwise. I can identify with this from a previous poster:
One of my DDs was to all intents and purposes a boy - she dressed like a boy, played with the boys, had no interest whatsoever in "girly" things (whatever they might be). She is now a happily married heterosexual with two children. My fear is that today a child like her will be filled with the current ideas that are being peddled, the teaching packs for primary pupils etc etc and will ask herself questions that do not need asking and go down routes that will ultimately damage her. That was me, into my mid teens if I am honest. (I still have a lot of the tomboy in me and have had for the fifty one years I've been married!). It's perfectly normal for children to have confusions about their gender and they should be left to work these out for themselves without people with one agenda or another putting pressure on them to take actions that could be hugely damaging.

can I say the young people I know who are transitioning have had NO pressure from outside influences whatsoever.Neither were they some sort of extreme Tomboys .It was a decision made by them after talking to their parents and their GP's .Both were around 15 when they made their choice ,both are .or appear to be,happy with that choice...oh and these young people aren't in the same social circle either ,they live over 20 miles apart ,one is a family friend and one a distant relative ..so they weren't colluding in any way to get what they wanted .I'm sure there must have been many many people in the not so distant past who had to bury these feelings and pretend to live a "normal" life .Thank heavens they can be themselves nowadays

I totally agree, who gives a jot what gender anyone is. I was actually introduced to somebody 2 weeks ago with "this is my lesbian daughter in law"...... I do not care what gender/sexuality anyone is.... a name would suffice... and a bit of respect would have been better.

I should add the daughter was lesbian too but the story is very long... but you get my drift.

Grumpyoldbat you've said it all as far as I'm concerned. My DD is married to a woman & they have 2 children (sperm donation), my DD is quite feminine wheras her OH is much more "mascaline", able to turn her hand to most practical tasks. My DD had boyfriends but found that her true happiness is with another woman. They have many lesbian & gay friends, many have become my friends. I have no knowledge of trans people but it does worry me that "gender fluidity" may become the norm. I want to know that the "woman" in the toilet/treating me in Hospital/doing my smear test etc" is actually a woman & not an intact male

Legs said I want to know that the "woman" in the toilet/treating me in Hospital/doing my smear test etc" is actually a woman & not an intact male

If she dresses as a woman and acts as a woman, that's good enough for me. It takes years to transition and it is not my business what stage she is at.
And have you never had a male doctor give you an internal examination or a smear test. I assure you, when there is need, it doesn't matter who is doing it as long as they are qualified!

Maryeliza, my apologies. I misread your post. It was before my cup of coffee! Obviously still half asleep.

GoB, thank you for you post. It made things much clearer. I now need to go away and have a good think, especially about gender. I have always been on the "masculine" side in my lifestyle preferences, from the toys I played with as a child to the types of jobs I enjoyed as an adult, but I have never felt anything but 100% female. Would pressure be put on me now to transition do you think? If I was young again I mean.

I am deeply, deeply worried about this. It all seems very one-sided, way over the top with a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon.

"A university has blocked research into gender reassignment reversal surgery because it is "politically incorrect", a researcher has claimed."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-41385299

I agree but if I specifically ask for a female nurse or gynaecologist, I do not want a man looking like Danielle Moscato telling me, its OK because I am a woman. Oh no you are not, and I could be prosecuted for not letting him treat me.
I do not want an intact male in the dressing room or changing room with me or my daughter, no matter what he calls himself on that particular day.
Young people have enough pressures on them today without out and out gender botherers putting ideas in their heads
Let them slowly come to their own conclusions.

There is a world of difference between lesbians and homosexuals and transgender issues.

I have no problem with anybody who wants to, has or is transitioning. I don't mind them using the same toilets as me, doing my smear test, using a cubicle in a changing room next to me or anything else provided they maintain the bounds of decency (and hygiene) that is acceptable between different or the same genders. However, I am deeply troubled with children receiving medication to become a different gender and I think gender neutrality is the way forward for children. Let them just be what they want, dress how they wish and promote inclusiveness for all. If when they are older, they wish to seek medical transition then that is a different matter. Children do not have the emotional maturity to make such decisions and parents cannot be relied on to make such a decision. I have a family member who doesn't just allow her boy to dress in a girl's attire but promotes it whole heartedly with gusto. The fact that she is a mother of several boys who would have liked a daughter makes me wonder if the situation fills a need in her too.
As a family we have relations who are gay, who have been cross dressers and one who got as far as gender reassignment surgery before his wife decided that was a step too far so he didn't have it. I have no judgement about any of them, I only feel sad that their journeys through life seem so fraught.

Here are some other scenarios - women who had fled domestic violence and are in a woman's refuge. A self identifying intact man fights for the right and wins it to also live in the refuge

Vulnerable women prisoners have sex with a self identifying intact female prisoner

A self identifying intact female prisoner, 6ft tall, guilty of a violent murder wins the right to be placed in a women's prison

Is all that fine? Maybe you're lucky enough not to have any female you care about need a refuge or go to prison. But some of us think that women should able to be in biological women only spaces and safe from male violence.

I know that sometimes you can't see a female doctor but when I've had a non urgent female problem, I've booked with a biological female doctor and have felt much better discussing eg flooding and painful periods - I should have that right without being accused of discrimination

define 'intact'. I assume here we are talking about people who have already begun the process with hormone treatment, and if they look like women are quite a way along.
Or is it the existence of a bit of external flesh that bothers you?

I like Radicalnan's post, too. Plenty of common sense there, imo. In particular, the sentiment, 'There is a school of thought, that transitioning is more of a mental health issue than a physical one....'

To save you using the link.

Azie09
I was very rather terse about your initial post and I now apologise for that.

Initially none of the issues presented were at all clear to me with no clues about which "sides" were claiming what

GrumpyOldBat Has now made this situatio much clearer to me.

Intact means working genitalia -the point some of us are trying to make on here is that the radical transwomen who want self identification of gender have NO intention of transitioning in the sense of hormonal treatment, surgery etc. Look at Danielle M - note his beard and he posts about his penis. Penises one way or another per se don't bother me - in the right situation I rather like them but I do want to be able to choose in other situations not to be in the presence of an intact man if that is my choice without being accused of discrimination