‘Upskirting’

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Perhaps I did not make it clear that nothing untoward about her was shown, just thigh. She must have known her thighs showed more than when she was standing up when she sat down and crossed her legs. That's how short shift dresses work.

Actually I really like the current fashion for short shift dresses worn over leggings or opaque tights. I like its neatness and simplicity.

If the definition of upskirting is that people have gone to extravagant lengths (lying on the floor, putting cameras on shoes, peeping from under stairs, etc), then I don't think I'm in disagreement with anyone on this thread.

If it includes what might be called accidentally awkward angles of television news cameras, which is what I was talking about earlier, then I can see where disagreement might occur. I don't think the woman I spoke about had any real reason to complain. Others might disagree. She was the one who called it upskirting.

You soon jumped onto ‘ the girls asked for it’ bandwagon

I thought I'd be accused of that. Incorrectly.

Except for the young clippy. She was being deliberately daring and outrée.

Upskirting is possible whatever length skirt a woman/girl is wearing. Upskirting is not caused by clothes but by the behaviour/attitude of those who choose to upskirt!!! That is what has to change.

No one should have a photo of any bit of themselves plastered anywhere without their say so. Sadly with the advent of technology there is not a hope in hell of that happening, this is the most worrying aspect of it all, but ‘life tarries not backwards as ‘the saying goes.

I’m sorry Baggs but your posts are reading as though females should change their behaviour - so apart from wearing trousers what would prevent this behaviour? Focusing on what females should do helps to infantilise males rather than sanctioning males who don’t change their behaviour and won’t if they learn its ‘all the females fault’.

You soon jumped onto ‘ the girls asked for it’ bandwagon. What do you think should be done when someone is upskirted then? Would you measure the length of the females skirt first before deciding? What length should be the minimum before the male is open to criticism? Is your Government wrong to have made it a crime?

Has anyone anywhere said all women should wear trousers?

Implying that posters have is perverse.

or even using escalators even

I dot think slapping is right but glammagran are you actually saying that all girls should wear trousers to school as should all women suing escalators? Really? Really? Really? Nothing to do with mountain climbing

Perhaps to go back to the OP I beleiev it is time everyone changed .In an attempt to give everyone the ‘right’ to do as they please, we have overlooked the necessity to point out that everything we do has consequences whether that be good or bad. Perhaps we have neglected to get this message across & it’s is time reiterate actions have consequences especially with the instant access to social media , which can have a huge impact on young people’s lives.

I’m with Baggs on this one. Her analogy struck me as quite a accurate. Mountain rescuers put their own lives at risk while people have a “I’ll do what I please” attitude to going climbing in appalling conditions. Would it be perfectly acceptable for boys to wear very tight trousers to school like Robert Plant (Led Zeppelin) back in the day? And what right did a teacher have to slap a really very silly boy? That’s the thin end of the wedge. Humiliating the boy in front of the school would have been more effective.

And WTF has a clippy’s behaviour decades ago to do with this issue?

Oh come on Baggs you can do better than that- women and girls should always wear trousers to prevent being upskirted? Well why don’t we just go the whole opposite of the full monty and put them in burqas? Problem sorted.

I should say, why not prevent it if you mind it. People who wear skirts that barely cover their bums must know that their knickers will sometimes be visible to others.

Some who worked as a clippy on Blackpool trams at the same time I did was sacked for not wearing knickers when she was an upstairs clippy because tram passengers complained about her behaviour. They felt as if she had forced them to see more than they wanted to see when they followed her up the tram stairs.

Telly if you had been unfortunate enough to have had breast cancer you would understand why. Some of us have gone through hell battling breast cancer, and are trying to make the point it can be be beaten.

Some old grumps on here that love nothing better than moaning. If you had fought for your life you would realise lots of things really dont matter. Live and let live.

Btw I dont know condone boys looking up skirts etc

I think we were talking about different aspects of the same things, me.

However, if you want to go back to upskirting in schools, girls younger than eleven can changed their behaviour with regard to what they wear. My own daughter did aged six. She came home one day and said she wasn't going to wear skirts or dresses any more. The issue was slightly more complicated than upskirting (though that was involved).

I agree that anyone (including men; think kilts) who wears a skirt shouldn't be subject to upskirting. It is sneaky and prurient, as I said. But if there is a way to prevent its being a problem even if it happens despite society's best efforts (which it will), then why not prevent it by making an effective change?

I think that perhaps you are not making the distinction between an ideal world and effective action to deal with one that is deeply imperfect. I am making that distinction even though, like you, I think people should be taught to behave properly and punished if they don't.

I also think people accused of wrongdoing (like the camera wielder above) should be defended against the silliness of the type of accuser she was subject to. Why should the camera wielder change her behaviour when there was no malice aforethought?

I don’t think anyone is saying that slapping was acceptable but that it was understandable. Upskirting is not stupid - it is behaviour that at the very least disrespects females and should not be tolerated.

Cant believe a teacher would slap a pupil, or get the headmasters support! Goid job it wasn't my child. All kids do stupid things, but teachers and other adults should set an example and deal with the situation appropriately for goodness sake

I couldn’t agree with you less Baggs. This discussion started wrt schools and whilst I accept that treads wander, I woukd like to return to that and not your whataboutery about young women in TV. A girl wearing a skirt should be able to go to school without being upskirted and if she is, there should be NO expectation that she should change her behaviour to prevent this happening. The vast majority of boys do not do this and so we should be concerned about the damaged minority that do and what this says about the influences they are subject to. Scotland made Upskirting a crime in 2009 - apparently there is to be a debate in the UK parliament about this next month. And your analogy about the mountain is so intellectually and logically flawed that I was left open mouthed. An 11 year old girl at school, a woman on an an escalator, a woman in a changing room being upskirted - how very dare they be so sensitive as to actually be upset by this? FFS

Stealing is usually done sneakily too, iam. I don't question the sneakiness and the prurience of upskirting and downblousing. What I'm suggesting is that there are plenty of things women and girls can do to prevent most of it with regard to those two problems. Then there is the apparently increased sensitiveness to such sneaky and prurient behaviour that some people have already mentioned.

We are back to the argument of whether it is reasonable for women and girls (and men too for that matter) to expect to be able to wear whatever they like with no consequences at all. When sexuality is not involved nobody seems to think wearing "what you like" is automatically appropriate so it seems a bit weird to me to think that when boobs, which are sexualised objects whether we like it or not, and undercarriages ditto (also penises), are involved the sexual aspect should just be ignored or we should pretend it doesn't exist.

This is not to argue that men and boys should not behave properly. It is to argue that, realistically, 100% of them never will. 100% of women won't either.

The problem of upskirting was brought up about a news or discussion programme on TV recently. I forget who the woman was who complained. One of the cameras was pointed at the group at about waist level. Because the people being filmed were sitting on couches without a desk in front of them, a good deal of the thigh of a woman was visible in certain shots. She was wearing a short dress and was sitting with her legs crossed. She must have known that this would expose a good amount of thigh. It's not unreasonable, in my view, for people to assume that she doesn't mind showing a lot of thigh. Why else would she dress in a way that showed it? The tone of her complaint was that she was a victim of the cameraman's prurience. The cameraman was a woman and probably filming the woman (and the other participants) in exactly the same way as she films men.

The victimhood status that some women seem to revel in (c/f the increased sensitivity mentioned by others) in such situations seems to me to be like someone deciding to climb a mountain in totally unsuitable clothing and then complaining (they don't usually, but mountain rescue teams sometimes do, with some justification!) when they become victims of reality—the reality of mountain weather conditions. It's stupid behaviour parading as freedom to do what the hell I like that's the problem.