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a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality?

(343 Posts)
FarNorth Sun 05-May-19 19:03:36

Maya Forstater, an internationally renowned researcher on tax avoidance, has been sacked for saying that transwomen are not women.

Her employer, the London office of the Centre for Global Development, said -
“You stated that a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality. A lot of people would find that offensive and exclusionary.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tax-expert-fired-for-saying-trans-women-aren-t-women-tpqgnm9vj?shareToken=662fc429bc2d409a9db729bd3cbc4d4c&fbclid=IwAR0F1o0RkktqyxEeA2guiz2K47W7Qtz8cLckWdf70Gd6EwC5TS3PPcmdUJc

FarNorth Sun 05-May-19 19:05:19

There is a crowdfunder towards legal expenses :
www.crowdjustice.com/case/fired-maya/?fbclid=IwAR0vSFAtUUaVGULQ5O3883KfS80L1dGCwyTDsaJM7ECDiKf3IC1CrrDO2bA

M0nica Sun 05-May-19 20:02:36

Reading the link suggests she did not say what her employers say she said

You stated that a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality. A lot of people would find that offensive and exclusionary.

That is entirely their interpretation of her very carefully worded statement

All but a very few of us are born with a clear physical gender. Most of us have minds of the same gender as our bodies, but being born with a differently gendered mind cannot change the biological gender of their bodies.

Transgender people should be accepted for who they are - people whose mind and body are different genders and each part should wherever possible be treated the gender it is. That means biologically gendered men should not, as a general rule use women's loos, changing rooms or other areas where women are tending to or displaying their bodies. The same applies to transgender women.

To me that shows no disrespect at all. Minds are free to be whatever they want but biology is fixed by chromosomes.

notanan2 Sun 05-May-19 20:13:17

I can respect that religous people believe in god, whilst still saying I dont believe in god myself.

But I cant respect that trans people feel that they are not their biological sex, whilst still believing myself that a person cant change biological sex

Why the difference?

Fennel Sun 05-May-19 20:36:14

Notanan please explain:
'But I cant respect that trans people feel that they are not their biological sex, whilst still believing myself that a person cant change biological sex'.
I don't understand.

Alexa Sun 05-May-19 20:39:50

Most people's biological sex is easily recognisable. Gender is is a loosely defined set of behaviours assigned by society.

It's good that most professions and trades are now
gender-neutral.

It would be good if whoever wanted to do so could behave as they like(within decency and legality) without reference to their sex organs.

Public toilets are the only difficulty, as the sex organs are so close to the organs of elimination which are generally held to be undignified.

Chewbacca Sun 05-May-19 20:42:19

You're not on your own there Fennel. I've read But I can't respect that trans people feel that they are not their biological sex, whilst still believing myself that a person can't change biological sex several times and I still don't understand what's being said.

notanan2 Sun 05-May-19 20:51:33

Why not Chewbacca?

Respecting others religions does not = declaring the existance of their god(s) and declaring that all of their beliefs are facts

But apparently, being respectful of trans people = declaring biology non existant and non important, and everyone redefining "women" as anyone who feels femme (which actually excludes many females)

Dear god Alexa toilets are not the only issue. One of MANY is that female rape victims should be able to request someone of the female SEX to do their invasive exams and proceedures. How "femme" or girlie they feel is irrelevant. What matters is their SEX

maryeliza54 Sun 05-May-19 20:55:43

And don’t let’s even start on women’s sport😡😡😡

Alexa Sun 05-May-19 20:59:45

I forgot that one, Notanan. I suppose a male rape victim might also prefer a female doctor to examine him.

Bridgeit Sun 05-May-19 21:01:51

Don’t worry about transgender, worry about freedom of speech which is increasingly being stifled by accusations of , offence, prejudice etc .
The rights of any person should never be unequal to another, but it seems to me we are going down a road of ‘ intolerance ‘ to tolerance ie, if some people are ignorant of or unsure or unaware of how to address another person by their preferred or correct tile then we have reached a very dangerous place indeed! We need to lighten up with each other, surely a simple apology if I ‘miss monickered’ you should be sufficient.

notanan2 Sun 05-May-19 21:15:49

I forgot that one, Notanan. I suppose a male rape victim might also prefer a female doctor to examine him.

Uh huh. Not someone with a penis.

notanan2 Sun 05-May-19 21:44:40

What happens to legal recourse for sex descrimination if sex doesnt exist.

My employer sent out a staff satisfaction survey and asked for all protected characteristics EXCEPT sex. Instead replacing it with "gender identity".

They are not even auditing for sex variations. If disabled or black people have a poorer experience in our workplace, that rightly matters.

But if women are experiencing unfairness, that is not even being monitored!

Alexa Sun 05-May-19 22:06:06

Notanan, your employer should have solicited opinions on both sex, and gender identity.

Some individual with a female looking bosom and so on could be the same individual who identifies themself with masculine gender. I cannot quite imagine why they would want to but it's possible. On neither count should they be discriminated against. Not in most work places,anyway, however if they were modelling clothing they may be required to model clothes and behave according to a gender stereotype. So that would be a reserved occupation with respect to gender bias.

notanan2 Sun 05-May-19 22:11:50

Alexa, sex descrimination goes sonewhat beyond bosoms and how you look in clothes hmm

Alexa Sun 05-May-19 22:15:07

Yes, I see that I haven't explained very well.

notanan2 Sun 05-May-19 22:16:30

E.g. Last summer a woman I work with had to fight for a minor uniform adjustment to allow her to work whilst managing menopause symptoms.

If menopause is now nothing to do with sex/being female/being a woman. And becomes just something that happens to "persons with menopause". It gets 10× harder that people who are descriminated against for reasons like that!

notanan2 Sun 05-May-19 22:19:12

Women have faught for sex protections for women

If women dont exist, as a sex, the laws and spaces that protect us dont either.

FarNorth Mon 06-May-19 00:40:09

Monica, it's easier to discuss these topics if the word 'sex' is used for a person's biology and the word 'gender' is used for how they like to look, act etc.

Employers, councils, schools, health authorities etc etc do not seem to understand the difference, however, and are doing as notanan2's employer did - they are replacing 'sex' with 'gender identity'.

Maya Forstater is taking a very important step with her legal action against her employer.

Lyndiloo Mon 06-May-19 01:48:00

I don't think that people should be sacked for their views on anything (unless, of course, it's blatantly discriminatory, or hateful).

I do, however, feel that all this 'gender identity' issue is going too far.

We're now including children in this! Let them be. Let them decide when they're old enough to know what they want.

I watched a TV programme a few weeks ago about a 'sect' in America. These people, although they have partners, have sex with other people, and these additional lovers are invited to the couple's home to have sex with their new lover. (Not explaining it very well here.) Anyhow, a husband would move out of the marital bed for a couple of nights to make room for his wife's new lover. No complaints from him, as he is doing the same elsewhere. (I felt so sorry for the children involved in all this.) One woman got pregnant with a lover's child, and when it was born declared, "We haven't named it, as we haven't assigned it a gender yet."

For heaven's sake! Nature has already given it a gender!

Where on earth are we all going with all this?

EllanVannin Mon 06-May-19 07:15:01

No wonder there's so many mental health issues around amongst children and young adults-----they don't know who or what they are any more.
To broadcast this nonsensical awareness has been a dangerous practice and one which is a root cause of suicides among the young because of the confusion that exists.

To sack someone because of their personal views on the subject says it all for me !!

M0nica Mon 06-May-19 08:06:10

Fra North a slip of the fingers. I know and understand what you are saying , am in total agreement and always use gender - except that odd occasion when ones fingers do the typing not ones mind.

sodapop Mon 06-May-19 08:15:25

I agree Bridgeit we have indeed reached a dangerous place. It seems freedom of speech is being stifled in the workplace, universities, schools etc. I am concerned too about the effect of this intolerance on future generations.
So glad I am retired now, I would find it very difficult to hold my tongue.

Jo1960 Mon 06-May-19 11:31:06

As I see it sex is biology and gender is a social construct that tells women what they should be. It's a construct that feminism has been challenging since day dot. Our mothers and grandmother's daring to wear trousers, riding bicycles, driving etc, and our generation fighting for equal rights, reproductive rights, starting women's refuges and rape crisis centres were a part of this fight.

What I see now is an erosion of our sex based rights by group of people who are extremely vocal and couldn't care less that there are already cases of trans women in female prisons assaulting very vulnerable women (most incarcerated women have experienced domestic and/or sexual abuse).

Latest data suggests that almost half of the 125 born male prisoners currently identifying as female but not holding a gender recognition certificate, are sex offenders. If they are recorded as female it will skew the crime figures. Only 5% of around 82,000 prisoners are female and of that number there are a tiny fraction who are sex offenders. There are also prisoners arguing to have their records in their "dead" name expunged which is really worrying.

Sorry for the lecture but this whole issue worries me. If someone feels they are the other sex that's fine, however no woman or girl should be endangered in the process. It's interesting that female to male trans people aren't making such a song and dance about getting into male dominated spaces.

Fennel Mon 06-May-19 11:58:48

"It's interesting that female to male trans people aren't making such a song and dance about getting into male dominated spaces".
Exactly Jol. Why so aggressive?
I only know one 'trans' person and she/he's female to male. Not at all militant.