"Regressive and sexist"

This is a very difficult question. When I am using a public toilet I have no idea if the person at the washbasin next to me is trans or not.

However, if I was made aware that person was a trans woman (rather than someone who had gone through the surgical procedure), I think, in all honesty, I would feel uncomfortable - and no I can't explain why.

Londongranny

I used to have friend who was trans.....in London. I liked them and never felt awkward with them.
I think it is different when you know a person.
Also you mention one of them had had the op. So that was a real commitment, not just a self identified person.
Again I feel there is a difference.

Trisher

When statements are made like trans women are more likely to be attacked I think I don't know this. Is this true? Where is the evidence?
I don't believe this.
Women are attacked daily, by people they know and by strangers.
I have lived my life since being about 12 knowing that i have to "be careful".
Knowing that men are a danger. Not all men. As I got older I relied more on my gut feelings.
But many men make a woman feel uncomfortable even when they are not going to attack them.

Perhaps when someone becomes a trans woman they begin to feel what the rest of us always feel when alone.
ie Vulnerable.
A woman is a target. Fact
so a young trans girl has just become a target in a manner they did not used to know because they were not female.

I hope this makes sense. Many women feel uncomfortable with men they do not know Fact. Even when they are NOT going to be attacked.

Regarding 'the op' trans people are not allowed it until they have lived as a woman for at least one year. That includes not using the gents. For my friend she had to go back to day one after she turned up at the clinic in a trouser suit. Very stylish, naturally. It wasn't a man's safari or three piece suit but a woman's trouser suit. A trans person's life is not really their own while they are waiting. The rules are very proscriptive. Are there women who have never donned a pair of trousers, ever? I can't say my vagina transmogrifies into a dangling appendage when I wear trousers.

As to the domestic violence against trans people, the UK doesn't collect those figures as such but non-official studies show that about 19 percent of trans people experience domestic violence as opposed to about 8 percent of women and 4 percent of men. The 4 percent includes violence from men in a gay relationship. Women who abuse their male partners are much rarer but it's also possible that men are too ashamed to admit they're victims.

Murder figures are harder because there are not a huge amount of trans people in the UK and even one extra murder per annum would look like a massive increase because of the small sample size.

Londongranny

I take your point about a transwomen needing to live for a year as a woman before being given the op. That must be difficult though it will depend on various factors too.

But there is a thread currently on Gransnet title "AIBU Rescuing a Damsel In Distress" which I think speaks clearly of the threat all woman live under. Most of all when young but it never really stops. So I still contest that women need female only spaces. If a trans woman has to wait a year that is not really a big deal in the scheme of things.

Londongranny

I only just absorbed your last point "there are not a huge amount of transpeople in the UK"

so why are we losing female only loos and other places then? We are catering to a small minority over the feelings of millions of women. Not right.

Exactly pink I might just might have some sympathy if I thought that men who self id as women were genuine rather than misogynists. But just look at what’s happening in Canada where the fight back is at last finally starting but some natal women’s lives have been made unbearable thus far. And wtf are the police doing recording crimes by self assigned gender in the UK?

Ladies loos are such a scarce resource that any incursion gets women riled up. Build loads more public ladies loos, say I.

Oh London how I wish this were just about loos. Your post makes it sound as if you are trivialising what is a serious issue. Have you read up on the Canadian waxing case, the Canadian women’s refuge case? Have you read up on the self Id women in a womans prison here who sexually abused other inmates? The woman attacked by a self id woman who when giving evidence in court was forced by the judge to refer to her attacker as ‘she’.It’s not a joking matter - build a million women’s loos - these TRA aim to erase women and I for one am not laughing.

Interesting that no one has explained how the law would be enforced, or who would challenge trans women and inspect them for penises.

Lack of loos is a serious issue for many women. It's never trivial wetting yourself in public for lack of them and I mention them here because there's so much mention of them on this thread.

...and if prisons weren't so dangerously overcrowded with outsourced POs with little training, if women's refuges hadn't had their funding slashed (200 women turned away daily in 2017 & it's worse now ....) this is not down to trans people.

London the best resourced woman's prison and refuge in the world should be a safe woman's only space.

Any lack of safety in any women's refuge is due to inadequate screening of people using the scheme and not to trans women.

trisher I’m at a loss as to why you persist in thinking this is all about safety and are ignoring feelings. Take women’s refuge - women are there because they ave been abused by men - physically, emotionally, raped. Many refuges.( most? ) have shared spaces - kitchen, living room, bathroom a woman needs to feel as well as be. safe which will mean not bumping into male bodied people. Quite frankly if trans women need refuges they can damn well campaign and fundraise for themselves as women had to and not take away women’s rights to women only safe spaces

suziewoozie I suggest you listen to the evidence given by a refuge volunteer to the report about women's spaces-I could google it and find you it but I've posted it before and you don't appear to listen. She said there are people who are totally unsuitable for a refuge place, and that includes some women, but they had a rigorous risk assessment procedure that made sure no one who was a threat to other women was admitted. I could tell you that there are women who are violent and who would victimise other vulnerable women just as men have, that there are trans-women who are equally vulnerable. But you don't want to hear that. You prefer to think one section of society is more or less vulnerable than another. I prefer to think that there are vulnerable people in every section of society. You are welcome to your prejudices just don't expect me to buy into them.

But do the more vocal examples of trans women also believe that there are vulnerable people in all sections of society, and that the fears of non-trans women of attack are as real as that of vulnerable transwomen?

Non-trans women fought to set up a network of refuges where they would be safe from the fear as well as the actuality of subjugation. As someone has already commented, trans women could have their own network in parallel. Their position is not identical with that of those who have always been female, and their special needs and anxieties could be better addressed.

This idea that trans women must support themselves is equivalent to the ideas in the 1970s when Erin Pizzey set up the first women's refuge. It is a stage I would have hoped we had passed, recognising now that all victims of violence need protection. I don't suppose those asking trans-women to do it themselves will admit to opposing women's refuges then, but it is a pity their ideas have not moved on.
Incidentally Erin Pizzey's ideas on domestic violence, rejected by many, are very interesting and give a small glimpse of the violence in many relationships which women are sometimes actively involved in. I suppose if you have never met violent women you might imagine it was all one way, once you have known some you realise it isn't always.

The part that concerns me the most is when men pretend to be trans in order to violate a woman or young girl. This has happened and no doubt will happen.
We are leaving the door open on this is we simply allow men to self ID.

There needs to be a discussion of what to do about this. Do trans women even acknowledge that women feel so vulnerable in the first place?
Not just of violence but unpleasant things said which is beginning to be recognised as harassment.

Perhaps transwomen could become involved in discussions about this or do they just want to demand their "rights" ?
Which to me sounds like the way men are, entitled and expecting to be heard at the expense of women.

Is there any talk on the net about transwomen taking time to respond to women's fears?

pinkquartz could you please give evidence of that accusation.
You may not realise it but there are trans-women using women's facilities right now. You just don't know they are.

There's something that comes across as deceitful about trans people that triggers distrust- I've no idea how that can be addressed to ease the fear of the "idea" of shared space-

pinkquartz ????????????

I read somewhere that only about 12% of male to female transsexuals have had surgery, gender reassignment surgery.

I agree, women and girls need their own changing spaces and toilet facilities.

I am glad that I don’t work, I would be very afraid of offending anyone in this gender minefield.

One of my close cousins was in a loving relationship with a m- f transsexual woman and we all joined into having family social events etc. They were like anyone else and were accepted.

rosecarmel You do realise that at one point women were all regarded with the same suspicion. They were considered unpredictable, subject to emotionl outbursts, unable to reason and generally to be distrusted because they were ruled by their wombs. It's where the term hysterical comes from. The Greeks thought the womb moved around the body and caused bother. Some people are deceitful it's not confined to trans-people.

*The part that concerns me the most is when men pretend to be trans in order to violate a woman or young girl. This has happened and no doubt will happen.
We are leaving the door open on this is we simply allow men to self ID.*

This sums up my feelings. It's not transwomen in general who are the problem - it is men being able to self-ID and the fact that there is no consideration of the feelings of women. And yes - I agree that this is another example of the male agenda being put ahead of that of women, and the shouting down of those who disagree.

I take on board that men in the process of transitioning beed to have access to loos,and going into the gents' is likely to be problematic. There will be a solution to this issue, I'm sure - but as long as women are just told to make way for men whether we like it or not, there will be resistance. Proper discussion, and a recognition of the needs of women is the only way that this will get sorted. Screams of 'TERF', and accusations of prejudeice and intolerance, are ironic

I didn't finish what I was saying, or review and edit my post before it sent, so please ignore typos and other errors. It would be good to have a small window in which to edit posts. Even a minute or two would be enough to pick up mistakes, or to pull back a post that sent before the poster was ready.