Believing in Biological Sex - a Sacking Offence

Again, how is this genuinely good, authentic trans peoples fault? Trans women are being oppressed, discriminated against, attacked and even murdered. If we don't stand with them, people who know the struggle against the patriarchy, who will?

Gay men are oppressed , discriminated against, murdered and attacked. Black men are oppressed discriminated against, murdered and attacked. Whst has that to do with womens spaces.

Im going to have to leave this discussion completely because too many here are not open to honest discussion and twisting words or facts, or being plain unfriendly frankly.

The above comment being another case in point, I'm asking for trans women to be allowed into womanhood, I've never asked for them to be in our "safe spaces" not that I personally mind sharing the ladies toilets or changing rooms with trans women, as I use my own cubicle and am private anyway. I've been quite used to in the past sharing ladies toilets with self styled drag queens and honestly they were amazing but did hog the mirror.

I would never try to make that decision and trample others feelings though and keep stating I feel a compromise should be found.

Discussion cannot happen in echo Chambers where people just want an argument and put words in others mouths to achieve that.

Yennifer I am not being unkind, I am sorry if you think that. It comes down to the fact that we believe different things. I dont think transwomen are women, you do. It is ok for us both to believe different things. You talk about the oppression of transwomen as something to do with women. I dont agree. I dont think the oppression of the other groups is anything to do with womens rights either. It's fine that we dont agree on this. It's not an echo chamber.

Quote: <<<Again, how is this genuinely good, authentic trans peoples fault? >>>

What is a ‘genuinely good, authentic trans person’? Please define that.

Quote: <<<Trans women are being oppressed, discriminated against, attacked and even murdered. >>> Just like born women, then.

Transwomen will never be allowed into womanhood because they are not, and never will be, women. They can identify as such as much as they like but they cannot change their biological sex.

The "man" who gave birth in FarNorth's link is, in fact, not a man at all but a woman. He will always be the child"s mother, not its father, and he cannot be named as such on the child's birth certificate. He is a woman, with woman's organs, identifying as a man.

His partner is non-binary. The sperm was donated.

I'm with Yennifer.

The argument is moot anyway. This is the direction society/culture is going in. Older women arguing about it on a forum for older people are going t have zero influence on this.

Drag queens are not transwomen. Everyone knows they are men. Why would they need to be in the women's toilet?

In gay venues the boundaries of who goes where are very blurred. No one minds.

Can I just point out that there are trans women already using women's toilets and changing rooms. They don't seem to be a problem and I don't think most people would even notice them. As for refuges they should have a good risk assessment policy anyway and deny anyone a risk access.

GagaJo may I direct you to MN and other forums for young women. This subject has been talked about for a very long time as posted previously. It is not just old women talking about this all women with any knowledge of history are interested in this and concerned.

Oh I wouldn't think so MacCavity2 the posters on MN are. just as entrenched as those on GN. You don't get many young -ie 16-25 year olds on there. That's where the change is really taking place. The rest of us can debate as much as we like they're the ones really moving things on.

Yes twitter mumsnet reddit the today programme. Jk rowling, Ricky Gervais, Martina Navratilova, Sharron davies all debating this issue.
All talking about it. Not just old women, and its fascinating how these oh so tolerant people feel that 'old' peoples views arent important. The issue also lost jo swinson votes in the election just gone. Votes she couldn't afford to loose as it turns out. Not just old people.

Oooer J. K Rowling posh girl made a fortune from almost plagiarism. I must pay attention to her. As I said you can talk all you like the actions of young people will drive this and just as the gay liberation movement has made same sex couples the norm on any high street you will see trans people, binary people, people who choose to dress and act as they feel everywhere. and the only thing which should concern us and should unite us is that we stand against all forms of discrimination and violence, whoever promotes or practices it.

Yes and martina navratilova Simon fanshaw those well known bigots. Two people who were at the forefront of lgb rights but yes what do they know.

trisher EXACTLY. 'you will see trans people, binary people, people who choose to dress and act as they feel everywhere. and the only thing which should concern us and should unite us is that we stand against all forms of discrimination and violence, whoever promotes or practices it'

But nobody cares how people present or dress. No one. It just doesnt mean they have changed sex.

I tend not to go around asking people for their birth certificate or a Gender Recognition certificate so how would I know? I take people as they appear. I suppose I have been lucky I have in the past been alone in situations where a man could have raped me. Not necessarily in toilets, there are plenty of other places. If men or women or trans women or trans men are violent or abusive they should be dealt with by the law. But just as I am not prepared to label every man a potential rapist I am not prepared to label every trans woman a potential rapist. And just as I don't go around looking to see if everyone in a changing room has a vagina I won't go looking for penises either. Meanwhile I will see in the evening in my city same sex couples, trans people with people they like and straight people amongst them and life will go on. There wil no doubt be hate crimes practised by evil people but I live in hope that we will become more inclusive and more tolerant and people will be happier. That's it.

Why do we segregate by sex trisher? Where is your inclusivity for the women who will be terrified using facilities with men present.

Actually as far as loos go that's historically interesting Galaxy. There were originally public men's loos but no women's, it being thought unlikely and wrong for women to use such things. www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/
And there are places where single sex loos are considered important so women can access education.

Indeed it was used as way to stop women being involved in public life. If I am not mistaken the first public toilet for women was burned to the ground. Men have never liked women having spaces of their own.
It is considered vital for girls to have access to single sex facilities in developing countries for their safety. I wonder why.

I agree that single sex facilities are vital in developing countries, galaxy but we're not a developing country.

If we are so keen to accept/embrace/ tolerate gender-neutrality/ non-binary-ism / transing men then why can't we also embrace the need to share the same spaces?

It all seems a bit penny and bun to me....

Because mixed sex facilities increase the risk of assault to women. Whichever country you are in.

Are you saying men in developed countries are not a risk to women?

It's more an idealogical point really. It's not necessarily my opinion.