Unbelievable description

....and again Hetty58, you have yet to address my question about the levels of pain and untreated illness in non-domesticated ruminants like cows and sheep.

Over the life cycle of a domesticated and undomesticated cow, for example, which animal is likely to suffer the most pain and discomfort. The one in the wild left without treatment for injuries, which put it at the risk of predators and endemic conditions and untended calvings, or the one on a farm treated when it has health problems and during calving, but with a brief nasty end?

I have a friend who is a vegan but her daughter is to the extreme. She won’t even eat honey as it’s come from bees and depriving the hive for its needs which I can’t understand at all, I can’t just think of the other extreme example she quoted but it was along the same lines. Is that normal for vegans?

Luckylegs

Vegans not eating or using or wearing anything from animal origin us very common- honey included.

It is not extreme

It is actually the definition of veganism.

Now, vegetarians can eat animal products as long as the animal is not killed for that purpose and if it aligns with their morals (not passing judgment here, just stating a fact)- eggs, dairy, honey, etc.

Yes, it is normal for some as is not eating any food that is grown and pollinated by bees.

It could make for a very limited diet indeed.

Added to which bees could die out.

I knew that vegans did not eat honey, but as for food that is grown and pollinated by bees. Is there any? (sorry Callistemon, I know that wasn't what you meant).

M0nica, your argument is bonkers! Yes, wild animals suffer pain. I never said they didn't. What on Earth has that got to do with domestic stock? We selectively breed them to use them. Otherwise, they (and their pain) wouldn't exist! They are not 'equivalent' in any way. They are unnatural creatures, bred to maximise meat, milk or wool production.

Hetty,

I agree.

Same argument is used by bullfighiting advocates - the bull would not exist if it was not for that "art"

Just to be clear, I despise bullfighting.
It is not an art, it is a despicable use of force used by coward men to show their masculinity and superiority over innocent animals.

I would rather an animal goes extinct than making them suffer for cruel entertainment.

I would rather have an animal go extinct than make them suffer for cruel entertainment.

sorry, grammar!

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202001/medium-808050-clip-mulesing.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202001/medium-295792-mulesing2-400x400.jpg

gmarie, thanks:

'conviction and judgement are two completely different things'

Yes, I feel strongly that we shouldn't eat animals!

Yehbutnobut, mulesing IS removal of skin (did you not see my previous link?) I will try to put the pictures here for you.

Hithere, another comment I hear is 'But you wouldn't see all the cows and sheep in fields if everyone was vegan!). Funnily, I could live with that!

Hetty you clearly did not see my follow up post. You said ‘removal of skin’ you omitted to say that it was limited to a small area around their anus.

Mommawolf

you are correct health issues very much come into diet choices....in fact that it why mine changed.

Yehbutnobut, I fail to see an argument for mulesing. It's just not logical to say that it (along with shearing) prevents flystrike when we've deliberately bred animals to have these problems. Wild sheep don't have excessive coats.

We are only interested in what they can produce for us.
If we were really concerned for their welfare, we'd selectively breed out their problems. But no, lets just remove some skin!

Your earlier comment made me laugh:

'I once saved a sheep’s life. Walking through a field I found it stranded, turtle-like, in its back'

Why was it waterlogged/stuck? Because (again) we've created these unnatural creatures that require interventions to survive!

Monica, there is not enough pasture in the world for all the food animals. Even now they are cutting down rain forest to make cow pasture.

Mulesing is hideous and if anyone knows what it is and does not shudder there is something wrong with their imagination.

Alexa. You do not get my point.

In the future we will have far fewer cattle, which because they are not fed on soya and maize,but only graze on_ pasture land that is not suitable for arable crops_ supplemented by hay from similar pasture will have a far smaller environmental footprint.

Most of the arable land currently growing maize and soya to feed cattle will be free to grow arable crops to feed humans and it will not be necessary to bring more land into arable use because there will be sufficient and there may be surplus land may well be returned to woodland and jungle.

Already meat consumption is starting to drop in some countries, including the UK. worldpreservationfoundation.org/business/meat-in-decline/ . There is no reason to think this will not continue.

Back to my original point, M&S are now describing the tote bag as faux leather.
What a pity they didn’t say that in the first place.

Do you think your thread made them decide to do that?

Wouldn’t think so for one moment but I am so pleased that they did.
It was so wrong to use the vegan label.

Yes, MOnica, I see now what you mean.

Why are vegan foods now called plant
Eg 'Plant Chef', 'Plant Based Range' 'Plant Kitchen' etc

Why not 'Vegan'

Plants to me are all kinds of garden plants, vegetable and non-edible.

There is an urgent recall on many pestos from most supermarkets if anyone has missed that
May contain peanuts

I assume vegans and vegetarians do not feed their pets, if they have any, on meat. They'd surely not approve of animals being farmed, killed and processed for other animals while decrying it when done for human consumption? Any animal that is an obligate carnivore, such as a cat, would have to hone its hunting skills.

As a vegetarian, my kids are veggie too. They will of course choose what they want to eat in the future when they grow up.

My cats? No, unfortunately.
There is no alternative plant based for them and their health and comfort is not worth sacrificing for my morals. I love them and i want the best for them.

So summarizing- as long as there is a healthy alternative to animal choices that does not compromise health, I follow it.
No alternative? Hoping it will be available in the future

So are you saying you're happy for animals to be farmed and slaughtered to feed your cats Hithere? Your cats would soon learn to hunt rodents and birds if they needed to. I'm omnivore so luckily don't face that dilemma.