jk rowling and the 3 dementors

So should we say people who experience fgm?

Trisher when you decided you were a feminist did you really think it would end up with you arguing not to use the word woman. I just cant believe that was where you wanted to be.

paddyanne JKR made no reference to the book or film, in her comments.
It was Daniel Radcliffe who brought that into it and who attempted to apologise for her views, rather than simply state his own views.

People always retain their biological sex of female or male, regardless of whether they call themselves non-binary or anything else.
trisher do you really believe that a non-binary person is not a female or a male? not a woman or a man?

I'm all for inclusive language when it's appropriate, but anyone who thinks that people who menstruate are not necessarily women must be seriously deluded.

I used to vote Liberal, but they lost me when Jo Swinson kept referring to women as "cis women". I didn't understand why the terms couldn't be women and transgender women. I also think it's unacceptable to have boys "identifying " as girls allowed into girls changing rooms.

and just what is 'cis' all about!

Galaxy there are many things I didn't consider, and actually I don't even recall when I became a feminist it was so long ago. I know that I was concerned then and I am still concerned with discrimination and with people who suffer or are badly treated for any reason. I would hate to think that my feminism was so entrenched that I couldn't change or adapt to circumstances and what I have noticed (well before Covid anyway) was that when I was with groups of younger people they often accepted asking which pronoun someone would wish to be referred to as the norm. Now it's not something I usually do and a few years ago it would never have entered my head, but if that is what is a requirement of society today I'm quite prepared to adapt, because it seems to me that if people can choose to be he, she or they, it may in the long run lead to a state where people are just people and not treated differently according to their natal or chosen gender or their sexuality.

Frankly, if the young actors didn't agree with Mrs Rowling, I think they were quite entitled to say so. Sounds to me that the good lady made a silly, crass comment.

I don't agree that any of the child actors "owe" J.K. Rowling anything. They worked hard to make those films, and I remember one producer saying that if they had become unsuitable in any way, they would have been out of the films.

I don't even know if J. K. Rowling had any say in the casting of the films. She may have done, but still I don't feel any actor owes her anything.

Neither should they apologise for something that she said.

If you think calling people by the pronouns they ask for is going to remove sex based discrimination for women you are very naive. Telling women that they can opt out of the discrimination they face is a terrible thing to do to women.

What I don’t understand is why women who were assigned that sex at birth are now referred to as cis women and trans women are women.
Well I’m a woman, I don’t want to be called a cis woman.
I’m happy to call a trans woman a woman if she’s had all the surgery etc but do not want to share toilets and changing rooms with people who have male genitalia no matter what their clothed appearance suggests.
I acknowledge such people are at risk in male only areas and think we should have a third safe space.
It feels as if the rights of the majority are being ignored to appease the minority and that’s not fair.

I feel so angry about this issue. I believe that if a person is unhappy in their sex and wants medical intervention to change it then good for them. I will support them and fight for their right for gender neutral spaces.

But this insistence that trans rights isn’t impacting on women’s rights is just wrong. The concept that you can self identify as a woman and have all the protections (limited though they may be) jeopardises everything women have achieved over the last 100 year’s.

Not to mention the horrific threats of rape and violence made by trans rights activist to jkr. Is it really any wonder that a woman who has suffered abuse is wary of sharing women only spaces with trans women who threaten to rape her? Il try to attach a list of what rights and protections will be impacted on by this so called progressive moment.

It’s typical that again “people” with - penis are railroading women Just through a new medium.

Personally, I don't mind which pronouns people want to use, it doesn't matter a jot. And young people are much more fluid in their approach to gender, which is fine. But gender and sex are two very different things. Sex is noted at birth, it is not assigned in some arbitrary way. I delivered countless babies in my career as a midwife and I can promise you, I didn't assign any baby to any gender. Biological sex is real, observable and can be proved scientifically. Occasional nature is less sure and babies can be born intersex-but that is very rare and nothing what so ever to do with transgender. Gender is a much more nebulous thing. Based on feelings and sense of identity. Particularly among the young experimenting with who they are and who they want to be. Where it does matter is where clarity is needed. For example sport.

Say you are a young woman with ambitions to cycle professionally. You are good, you train hard. Cycling is your life, your passion. You are one of the best. You are focused, determined, you want to win. You enter the most important race of your life, not many more chances to make it big. There are a handful of women such as yourself at the top of your sport. Competition is fierce.

Then you realise one of your opponents is Veronica Ivy, (previously known as Rachel McKinnon). 6 foot tall. She was Rhys McKinnon until the age of 29. Now 38, having lived most of her adult life as a man, benefiting from larger lung and muscle capacity, leg length and testosterone, albeit slightly reduced, she now dominates women's cycling at this high level. This is where the problem lies. In her professional work it doesn't matter one jot whether Veronica is male or female and her name and pronouns are up to her, but when someone such as Veronica then competes in sports against biological women, there is huge unfairness. Across the sporting arena there are others like her, dominating their sport pushing biological women out.

Veronica has a certificate to say that she is female and allowed to compete against women. Perhaps she does, but morally, is she right to grab the glory leaving biological women behind.

A question was asked on mumsnet - if a mum asked on behalf of her adolescent daughter for a female dr and the dr was a male but self identified as a woman, would she be considered transphobic if she asked for another woman doctor. The answer was yes! How is that fair?

Petunia, thank you, you have so eloquently phrased your last post and beautifully illustrated my feelings on this matter. Women’s sport. Enough said, what is the point anymore?

Yes it was an excellent post. Being a woman is a biological reality. If it isnt being a woman is reduced to a set of stereotypes. We have seen it on this thread already, with phrases such as walk like a woman or look like a woman, stereotypes which women have fought against for years.

The question of sport is an interesting one and by no means as simple as petunia presents. In fact testing for sex has led to all sorts of unaccepptable practices including surgery already condemned on this thread. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports
Of course what is most interesting is that sex verification is only ever carried out on women.
Sex verification is not conducted on athletes competing in the male category, and little data are available on their chromosomes or hormone profiles. However, a post-competition study of 693 elite athletes by Healy et al., published in 2014, found significant differences along many variables. The authors found that:
16.5% of men had low testosterone levels, whereas 13.7% of women had high levels with complete overlap between the sexes
Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.

Babyshark an almost similar event happened to a friend of mine. She is a survivor of sexual assault and wanted a female nurse to conduct an intimate test. A nurse with massive hands, a deep voice and a full beard assured her that they were indeed a woman and my friend ended up fleeing in terror from the surgery.

Some on GN doubted my story but the truth was revealed when my friend bravely took action and the result was subsequently published in the Sunday Times.

Well said JKR. Of course she is right. What is so sad is the fact that felt she needed to explain herself and apologise. I am disappointed in Rupert Grinch, but not at all surprised by Emma Watson. She will nail her flag to whatever the latest trend is. I don't think she probably knows what she really believes anymore. And no, I don't want to share public changing rooms or loos with any man who thinks he might quite like to be a woman.

Cis women is a phrase used by the trans community to describe biological women in order to substantiate their own claims to be 'women'.

They are of course, trans women. No harm if that's what they want to be, except when they try to put biological women down in some way.

I heard a discussion on R4 some time go where a psychiatrist expressed the view that body dysmorphia (particularly where someone feels they've been 'born into the wrong body') is likely to be a psychological and not a physiological issue.

I thought that made sense.

Cis women is a phrase used by the trans community to describe biological women in order to substantiate their own claims to be 'women'.

Why can't the trans women be "cis women", and we just stay as the "women" we've always been? Why do we have to be the ones to change?

@suedonim that is genuinely awful. I don’t want any trans person to feel anything but accepted for who they are inside but not at the expense of a woman’s right to choose who sees her body and who she allows into her safe space. It’s honestly like progress has moved into reverse. I genuinely think the majority of trans woman get and understand this - but it’s aggressive trans rights activists that cross the line and actually prove the point that women need to retain the few protections we have gained.

I’m sorry for your friend. She was brave to challenge. A lot of people who challenge in that position are now being doxxed and harassed.

Yes there are many transwomen who stand with women and refuse to use womens spaces, they receive considerable abuse. Fionne Orlander for example has been very brave.

Any instance of anyone harrassing another person causing that person distress or discomfort in any way is wrong. If it happens it needs to be dealt with, but as far as I know any one is entitled to refuse to be medically examined by another person and doesn't need to give a reason. I have no doubt there are agressive trans women but that is not a reason to condemn them all.
When women were fighting for the vote some chose to take very militant actions including arson and bombs, regretfully some of those women have been written out of history because they were regarded by other women as extremists and unacceptable. The rights and wrongs of their actions have been much debated but they stand as an example that sometimes radical actions are needed to establish equality.
And the issue with JK Rowling is not about trans women anyway but about trans men who still menstruate or binary people who simply choose not to use the term woman but still menstruate. I think they should be entitled to call themselves whatever they wish.

I think you’re spot-on Babyshark. Natal women need to protect the right they currently have.