jk rowling and the 3 dementors

Summerlove

Iam64

I find the trans issues challenging, don't suppose I'm alone in that. The need to protect hard fought for women only spaces is close to my heart. I don't see the majority of trans people as posing a threat. I do feel uneasy about eg brownie and guides on holiday with their group, finding themselves sharing their bedroom or dorm with a boy who self IDs as female.

I find the term virtue signalling unhelpful and lazy. To accuse JKR of 'virtue signalling' in response to her genuinely expressed concerns is just daft.

I did not accuse her of virtue signaling, I’m just curious why people who have opposite opinions of hers are accused of virtue signaling.

I for one doubt that they have a true opinion on the issue at all but wish to be seen as being very politically correct.

Emma says she has spoken out on transgender issues because of what she sees an increasingly misogynistic society.

Does that mean she does not understand what she is talking about?

well, I am female and a woman! That covers it!

I’m thinking it just shows she has a different opinion than you do on what constitutes Misogyny.

I find this whole issue really hard to define where I fall.

I just struggle with the constant insult of “virtue signaling” when someone disagrees with an opinion

True Summerlove. If someone doesn't have the same opinion as you they're 'virtue signalling' these days either that or they're 'narcissistic' - another widely misused expression.

And anyone who expresses a view other than the accepted PC views is vilified and threatened.

Callistemon

And anyone who expresses a view other than the accepted PC views is vilified and threatened.

Which is terrible And uncalled for.

But surely that doesn’t mean that all of those people Who are not threatening and Just commenting their views are virtue signaling.

there does not seem to be many/any transmen actively campaigning for access to mens spaces

They don't need to as they are not seen as a potential threat to men.
Also there is little likelihood of predatory women claiming to be transmen in order to spy on men or harass them.

Transwomen are not campaigning openly for access to women's spaces.
They have done things by stealth over many years, by means of lobbying politicians and, more recently, by means of 'inclusivity training' given by 'equality organisations' to police, NHS, education staff, prison authorities etc.
That 'training' has included untrue statements such as that it is the law that transwomen (with or without a GRC or any medical treatment) must be accepted as female in all circumstances.
Many organisations have changed, or are changing, their policies based on that untruth.

Iam I don’t even think the issue is the threat that transwomen pose but what the TRAs hijacking the concept of what a woman is which underpins the whole issue. Yes there is the issue of women only spaces such as refuges, rape crisis services but these need to be biological women only spaces not just because it’s physically safer but because women who have need of those spaces have suffered from male violence and to be confronted with a male bodied person at such a time could so clearly be terrifying regardless of the actual risk posed. I also think dignity and privacy come into it as well - not just physical safety. School girls need separate toilets free of all male bodied people and so do women. It’s fine to have female, male and gender neutral but not to have only male and female with the latter open to any self id-ing male who fancies it.
Then there’s the whole issue of women’s sport - by allowing male bodied people to compete as women is simply unfair and unacceptable.
Then there’s the whole issue of allowing transwomen to represent women on boards, committees, in organisations. Fine to have the trans perspective represented but not at the expense of silencing the perspectives of biological women.
I could go on but I just wanted to make the point that it’s a huge multi faceted issue. Giving rights to trans people must not be at the expense of taking rights away from women and denying the reality of biological sex.

Transwomen are not campaigning for access.
Any current publicity is a result of biological women objecting to the words 'girl', 'woman' and 'female' being redefined to include male people, and to the risks that follow on from that.

I think people should be able to comment on the transgender issue, providing they do it in a calm and respectful way.

There are people who feel the same as JKR. It is a complex issue and, for me anyway, I find it difficult to know quite what I think about it.

Does the term "transgender" for instance refer to people who are of indeterminate sex - I believe it is known as "inter sex"? Or is it a description of men who currently have, or formerly had, exclusively male genitalia but who now identify as women (and vice versa)? Or does it solely refer to anyone, whatever their physiology, who emotionally and psychologically identifies as female?

I do understand why some people have mixed feelings about this because the experience of someone being born a woman, with a woman's physiology, brings with it a very different experience of the world from that of someone being born a man, with a man's physiology.

In my view, though, JKR's obviously sarcastic, and no doubt hurtful, reference to "Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud? “ was uncalled for and bound to provoke a reaction.

I feel it is OK to debate this issue and express concerns. The level of hatred directed at JKR (or anyone else who expresses misgivings) is, in my opinion, just wrong - and counterproductive.

I dont understand why just because JK wrote the book the film was based on these actors shouldn't be allowed to voice an opinion,or why some think they're ungrateful.I'm fairly sure JK was exceptionally well paid for the rights to the book so its the people who paid for it and who auditioned them who deserve their thanks but still NOT their silence,
If we have to be grateful to anyone who made anything that was useful or even necessary to our job it would be a very strange world

paddyanne I agree with you.

Anyone should be allowed to express a view and these actors do not have to keep their mouths shut just because they worked on the Harry Potter films.

Younger people have grown up seeing issues of discrimination being challenged and debated, and are more likely to be sensitive to the preconceptions and prejudices that exist. Older people, having grown up when such prejudices were seen as the normal order of things, tend to be more set in their thinking.

It is one of the oldest of all prejudices they are embracing.

Eloethan JKR’s use of ‘wumban’ etc was far more nuanced than you give her credit for. She’s referring to attempts over the past few years to change the meaning of woman into something that encompasses anyone who self ids as a woman. 2 or 3 years ago (I think) we had some institutions replacing the word woman with womxn so it could include trans women. I mean really - a woman is an adult human female and a trans woman is a trans woman. Why should natal women lose their biological identity - I’m also straight and white and older - I don’t expect to be described as non-gay, non- black or non- younger .

I have all sympathy for anyone who feels they are in the "wrong body" and feel they need all support if they want to change that. However, whilst someone is still physically male I would not be happy sharing a changing room or other facilities with them. We have all read reports of men who have identified as women, gained access to women only spaces and then attacked the women there.

I am not saying that all self identifiers are a threat to women but it has to be recognised there is a threat and there should be safe places for all women (whether born or fully transitioned)

I totally agree with your excellent post yesterday suziewoozie of 23:50:19
Giving rights to trans people must not be at the expense of taking rights away from women and denying the reality of biological sex.

JKR never as far as I know made it clear that she was referring to men self--identifying as women, she was talking about trans women.

I am never in favour of any discrimination on any grounds whatsoever. I trust the people who run refuges and places of safety for women to properly investigate and examine anyone entering those premises for the risk they present to other occupants. As for toilets and changing rooms there have been transwomen using those places for many years (it's almost 50 years since Jan Morris had her surgery) and I have yet to read of a huge number of assaults.
As for JK Rowling, I don't think using menstruation as a standard for women is helpful are we, once we pass through the menopause, not women?

That's not what she did which you would know if you had read it.
She was objecting to the removal of the word woman from the sentence people who menstruate. This does not mean that those who dont menstruate are not women it means that all who menstruate are women. In the way that all who experience fgm are women/girls. It's not difficult.

Sorry I got it wrong should have investigated first.
But some people menstruate when they become transgender men, are they forever to be labelled women even though they do not wish to be? Or are they not people?
Are women not people?
People covers all those who menstruate if they choose to define themselves as men, women or binary.

what about when you go to buy plugs and are asked male or female for the type you want to plug into?.......just a funny thought!

Trisher are you suggesting that the word women is offensive.

Or you could use the sentence women and transmen, not difficult is it. That's the point JKR is making.

Galaxy you missed out "non-binary people" oh hang on there's a word that covers women, trans-men and non-binary, it's that last one isn't it? It's people!