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Amnesty International say - 'no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’'

(525 Posts)
FarNorth Thu 03-Dec-20 18:04:33

This is a post on mumsnet, quoting Amnesty International, who recently signed a controversial letter about sex and gender.
(The underlining is mine.)

"A week ago I saw that Amnesty had responded to a complaint about the open letter signed in Ireland and in that response had said the above.
I wrote to Amnesty as a long time supporter and queried whether this was their official stance, and have today received a reply.
This is an extract - see esp para 3.

“We stand over the letter, which we signed to stand in solidarity with the trans community and against those spreading hate.

There are attempts to decontextualise certain phrases used in the letter in a way that misleads and confuses people, which is a common tactic used against many of our human rights campaigns. For example, the letter asks for media and politicians to not give legitimacy to those spreading vitriol or misinformation. This is being framed as a call to take away their political representation, which anyone reading the letter will clearly see is not what it means.

Another example is the letter’s referring to those ‘defending biology’. Allowing self-determination of our bodies is a basic principle of feminism and human rights. There is no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’ - a person’s genitalia doesn’t determine their gender. Those that seek to exclude and disenfranchise groups of people, or force people into one gender or their other on that basis, are working against basic human rights principles.

We feel much of the current media reporting and conversations on social media with regards to self-identification is misguided. Restricting the rights of transgender people, and omitting the use of inclusive language will not advance or protect women’s rights.“

Chewbacca Mon 07-Dec-20 23:04:12

I didn't know it would remind you of someone who upsets you

No problem Astral. They didn't upset me; they were suspended/banned.

NiceasMice Mon 07-Dec-20 23:01:31

Galaxy and Chewbacca
Agreed, there is so much more at stake than just toilets and changing rooms.

Galaxy Mon 07-Dec-20 22:59:03

Although am fascinated by the idea of a sexual toilet facility. That definitely doesnt sound safeshock

Astral Mon 07-Dec-20 22:57:12

NiceasMice, I'm not sure I you didn't undertand what I meant or if I'm not understanding you. I think I've spent too long looking at a screen today. Another day.

Galaxy Mon 07-Dec-20 22:57:03

I thought you were just copying me chewbaccagrin

Astral Mon 07-Dec-20 22:54:26

Sorry Chewbacca, I thought it was a politer, friendlier way of expressing just a tiny bit of frustration. Not passive aggressive at all and not intended to upset anyone.

I can not do that in future, I didn't know it would remind you of someone who upsets you.

NiceasMice Mon 07-Dec-20 22:54:26

,,, trans men in women's toilets looking and acting like men

Well that is perfectly ok because as you said, they are acting like men
Single sex spaces in action right there. Not a problem.

Chewbacca Mon 07-Dec-20 22:53:03

Snap Galaxy! grin

Chewbacca Mon 07-Dec-20 22:52:22

This thread has fixated only on women's toilets but the main issue so that there are many other areas where women are vulnerable, as other posters have pointed out. Women's refuges exist because women have been physically, sexually, emotionally and psychologically abused by men. How can you ratify a biological man, who dresses as a woman, being allowed to work or live amongst those women? Can you not see or understand that some women and their children are traumatised by men; irrespective of how they are dressed? This is a bigger problem than just a sexual toilet facilities.

Galaxy Mon 07-Dec-20 22:47:51

Just a timely reminder as the subject always gets dragged back to toilets, and am sure I am as guilty of that as anyone, this is not just about toilets(something I think could be easily solved) this is about refuges, women only shortlists, political representation, prisons, sport, crime statistics, etc etc.

Chewbacca Mon 07-Dec-20 22:45:14

Astral

Because they identify as women Galaxy

Oh a cute kitty photo. Another poster used to post photos of cute kitties as a passive aggressive message. Can't think who it was now......

Astral Mon 07-Dec-20 22:40:34

NiceasMice but then we would have trans men in women's toilets looking and acting like men, leaving puddles about the place and sending everyone into histerics

NiceasMice Mon 07-Dec-20 22:30:32

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NpIy-0_esU

This is why women's single sex toilets exist.
Widen the bandwidth of what it is to be a man please, don't just expect women to budge up.

Astral Mon 07-Dec-20 22:27:36

I absolutely guarantee that everyone on this thread has used a public toilet with a trans women at some point and never known. That's just the reality of the situation and I truly understand that some people don't feel comfortable with that but I don't know what can be done to help other than embracing trans women and working with them to keep us all safe from opportunistic predators who exist everywhere and probably less in places where people go to release their waste.

Galaxy Mon 07-Dec-20 22:27:10

Fair point astral, you didnt say that I was just pointing out the absurdity of the two conflicting arguments.

trisher Mon 07-Dec-20 22:26:24

How does banning trans women make them safer Galaxy? No space is 100% safe. I think everyone knows that. I see you have taken to posting the ridiculous so I shall assume you realise the argument is lost.

Galaxy Mon 07-Dec-20 22:24:55

You can take what you like but it wouldn't be true I am afraid. So womens spaces are safer than mixed spaces now are they?

Galaxy Mon 07-Dec-20 22:23:03

But how does that make them safer in womens spaces than mens when women are bring told on this thread that womens spaces are not safe.

Astral Mon 07-Dec-20 22:23:01

I cannot comment on what I didn't say.

Can everyone please keep up

trisher Mon 07-Dec-20 22:21:32

I haven't said women aren't safer I have said they aren't safe and the perception that they are is wrong, as is the idea that banning trans women will make them safer.
If you google women attacked in toilets you can find the evidence of when they have been attacked. It's a bit difficult to find because the anti self ID brigade have flooded the net with posts and articles about unisex loos but it's there.
Galaxy that is such a silly argument I would have thought better of you after all why shouldn't all women use a male toilet?
I will take it that you fully realise that the whole concept of keeping trans women out of women's facilities is unworkable and what is actually going on here is an attempt to cover up discrimination and prejudice by pretending it's concern.

Galaxy Mon 07-Dec-20 22:21:11

I dont believe any of that obviously and have no idea what being vigilant means, but I am just pointing out the absurdity of telling women that single sex spaces provide no safety but yet they are a safer place for transwomen.

Astral Mon 07-Dec-20 22:20:59

Because they identify as women Galaxy

Galaxy Mon 07-Dec-20 22:10:32

Why are transwomen safer in womens bathrooms astral after all single sex bathrooms are apparently just an illusion of safety, surely they would be just as safe in the mens bathroom, they would just need to be vigilant as women have just been told to be.

NiceasMice Mon 07-Dec-20 22:08:19

... because if you are using a public toilet you should be vigilant
Do you actually think this?

I strongly disagree, women's toilets are (relatively) safe spaces... for women. That is why they exist.

Astral Mon 07-Dec-20 22:03:51

No it isn't Iam64. But I havent said that people shouldn't have safe spaces at any point and I can't be expected to address that when I do not know what the solution is. I spent a year in a refuge myself.

I would certainly donate for a refuge for trans women. I am not sure they could realistically fund their own. Set up perhaps. What they cannot do is fund transgender bathrooms and changing rooms everywhere and unless someone does it, I'm not sure where we really expect them to... Go

So if trans women aren't comfortable or safe in men's bathrooms, and aren't welcome in women's then that is an unfair situation and they do not have equality.

When my daughter was little, my husband also faced bathroom issues out with her alone. She's autistic and was very unable to go in a woman's bathroom alone. He couldn't accompany her and he couldn't take her in the men's because of people using urinals. He would have to ask for the disabled key and sometimes he would be told no.

So having somewhere everyone is able to access is actually an issue that may affect more than trans people or women really isn't it.

I think someone already suggested seperate bathrooms with seperate wash facilities but I think that was shot down for some reason.

Again I'm not sure what answers I am expected to have when I'm not against people feeling safe in the first place