Rather pay than give in

You asked why people keep going on and on about this Jane10.

This is the worst political decision of my lifetime. We are walking out on the most successful political partnership there has ever been in Europe. The people who have enabled this talk about sovereignty, trade deals and so on as though they have a deep knowledge of such things, when very often they are basing their ideas on what the biased and self-interested press has told them.

But, due to Cameron’s hubris, we got a decision from the UK electorate to leave the EU. In my view, the worst decision ever, but in a democracy you have to go with it. We could have left on good terms with the EU, stayed in the Single Market and so on but no, for the last 4 ½ years incompetent or self serving governments have led us to the brink, blaming the people who used to be our allies and today, actually getting the gunboats ready.

So I’ll go on talking about it forever. That’s all that’s left and just putting up and shutting up is not an option. This is not something that we can put right at the next election, when we realise that we’ve made a wrong decision. The US were able to get rid of Trump but the UK are stuck with this disaster forever. So when we talk about it on here, and get told “you lost, get over it, this is what we voted for, Buy British, remember the war….”, that’s not going to happen.

Cue people to twist my words, poke fun and tell me I’m a loser who doesn’t understand democracy.....

All of our extended family who were entitled to vote from the twentysomethings to the seventy somethings did turn out in force and not one of uz voted for this brexit nonsense. .

I hope you are equally cross with the 50 year olds Callistemon who turned out in about the same proportion as 18-24 year olds.

Elegran

I hope it is made clear that not ALL over 65s voted to leave the EU That is clear from the balance on Gransnet being in favour of remaining. Those who rant at ALL the age group are ignoring those who have always argued logically and vehemently that it would be better to stay - and produced far more factual and reasoned arguments than the leavers.

Unfortunately, they were shafted by the over 65s, who voted 60% to leave and the 55-64 year olds, who voted 57% to leave. What an appalling legacy.

Obviously we are blamed en masse, Elegran.
Over 65? You should be taken out and shot at dawn.

No-one wants to take responsibility for themselves, it's so easy to blame others.

watch the Press from the EU and beyond, and listen to their TV channels- and see what the reactions are arround the world. It is NOT a good look, and no wonder. The damage will last for a VERY very long time ... and the consequences will be dire.

But, this is all history as I will no doubt be reminded

I won't remind you! but it has been thrashed out on GN many times and it's academic now.

Unless we have a sudden volte face.

But NO Jane, what has happened, is that (sort of) a tiny majority of thos who voted voted to Leave- with the great Deal we were promised.

Even if we accept the Leave vote (fraudulently) happened- it was never ever meant to be like this, turning the UK to the laughing stock and losing totaly respect in the world - and now threatening our nearest partners, who hold the keys to the access to essential imports and exports.

How can anyone make the best of THAT? Many of our top and respectable Tories are now distancing themselves from this shameful debâcle.

I hope it is made clear that not ALL over 65s voted to leave the EU That is clear from the balance on Gransnet being in favour of remaining. Those who rant at ALL the age group are ignoring those who have always argued logically and vehemently that it would be better to stay - and produced far more factual and reasoned arguments than the leavers.

Jane10

Yes. Odd thread really. We were just reminiscing yesterday about the time when you could only take £50 abroad. Anyone else remember that?

in 1970- £50 was 5 weeks salary for me, btw- full time PA/translator, in London.

Why are you all going on and on about this? It's happened. It's not ideal. It's not what I voted for but it's happened.
It's a matter of making the best of it rather than upsetting yourselves reminding you of it all. It's akin to a sort of psychological self injurious behaviour.

I have said this before and will repeat:. I firmly blame Cameron for this; in June students are all over the place as most parents will know. They can be in halls, or arranging off campus accommodation to start from September, or with parents, or working and living somewhere temporarily for the summer,possibly abroad. All of this makes registering to vote not as easy as it is for those of us living in one place. Some students, my dd included, were encouraged by their university to make sure they.were registered somewhere, but I still maintain that the result would have been different had Cameron arranged for the vote to be in say November. But, this is all history as I will no doubt be reminded, still unnecessary careless which has brought us to where we are now

Nezumi65

It was unfairly rude about the young, They did turn out.

Obviously not enough of them to make a difference.
I remain very annoyed and disappointed with them.

It's not merlotgran who is ranting as far as I can see.

Has anyone heard anything about the,£350m a week for the NHS lately? Or is that being used to pay for gunboats instead? Now try to convince me you knew what you were voting for.

I think also that for some young voters, the logistics made it quite difficult if they were at university, as they had to ensure that they were on the electoral roll at the place they were living when the referendum took place. This involved in some cases - such as my daughters - taking steps to be included on the roll some time in advance, which required some organisation.

However, of those 18-24 year olds who were able to vote, 73% voted remain, as did 62% of 25-34 year olds. Unfortunately, they were shafted by the over 65s, who voted 60% to leave and the 55-64 year olds, who voted 57% to leave. What an appalling legacy.

Interesting figures - now we know to blame that third of younger people for not bothering......they could’ve swung it for Remain!

It was unfairly rude about the young, They did turn out.

Further details here: www.lse.ac.uk/about-lse/connect/connect-2017/eu-referendum-breaking-indifference

So unless you are including 54 year olds in your rant about youngsters moaning it seems you owe them an apology

It was hardly a rant.

Again not true merlotgran

64% of 18-24 year olds voted
65% of 25-39 year olds
66% of 40-54 year olds
74% of 55-64
90% of 65+

So unless you are including 54 year olds in your rant about youngsters moaning it seems you owe them an apology

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

We have let the younger generation down in this, as in so many other ways,

PetitFromage, I seem to remember an awful lot of young people who were of voting age didn't attach enough importance to the referendum to bother. Does Glastonbury jog any memories>

Things could have so easily gone the other way if they'd cared a bit more about their own futures instead of leaving it to others then moaning that they have been let down.

MawBe, my friend's daughter is doing GCSE's, and Erasmus normally applies to Second year at Uni. So she would want to go in 4 years' time.

petra- this are the facts from the official Government website

''After you get your decision letter, you can view your pre-settled or settled status online on GOV.UK. If you're from the EU, EEA or Switzerland, you will not get a card showing your pre-settled or settled status - your status is only online.

It is not so easy for someone who has never worked in the UK, arrived fairly late in life and is now widowed and living in her British husband's Council Bungalow with multiple handicaps and health issues. I can assure you, FACT.

biba70
Once again your wrong in respect of eu nationals not getting any documentation Re leave to remain.
My daughter has done this for her Albanian neighbours.
It did not takes months. The time spent by my daughter covered 2 weeks ( on and ) because she has her own business to run. Otherwise it would have been shorter.
Those are facts
Btw. It might be better for your understanding as to how things are in the uk to stop reading the Express.

Yes I agree varian. The Human Rights Act was the greatest protection my severely disabled son had when the State sectioned him (he is non-verbal, has severe learning disabilities, and epilepsy). The Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights used his case as an example of what was not acceptable and said it must not happen. That protection is likely to go with the British Bill of Rights.

What on earth are the new British values? Inequality, different rules for those in power, cronyism, corruption and no freedom of movement.

The EU values are common to the EU countries in a society in which inclusion, tolerance, justice, solidarity and non-discrimination prevail. These values are an integral part of our European way of life:

Human dignity is inviolable. It must be respected, protected and constitutes the real basis of fundamental rights.

Freedom of movement gives citizens the right to move and reside freely within the Union. Individual freedoms such as respect for private life, freedom of thought, religion, assembly, expression and information are protected by the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Democracy- The functioning of the EU is founded on representative democracy. Being a European citizen also means enjoying political rights. Every adult EU citizen has the right to stand as a candidate and to vote in elections to the European Parliament. EU citizens have the right to stand as candidate and to vote in their country of residence, or in their country of origin.

Equality is about equal rights for all citizens before the law. The principle of equality between women and men underpins all European policies and is the basis for European integration. It applies in all areas. The principle of equal pay for equal work became part of the Treaty of Rome in 1957. Although inequalities still exist, the EU has made significant progress.

Rule of law The EU is based on the rule of law. Everything the EU does is founded on treaties, voluntarily and democratically agreed by its EU countries. Law and justice are upheld by an independent judiciary. The EU countries gave final jurisdiction to the European Court of Justice which judgements have to be respected by all.

Human rights are protected by the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. These cover the right to be free from discrimination on the basis of sex, racial or ethnic origin, religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation, the right to the protection of your personal data, and the right to get access to justice.

europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en

This is not just about whether your grandchild can study or work in another EU country or how long you can stay in your second home in France, it is the loss of these values, being part of something greater and better, that causes so much distress, compounded by the deceit, incompetence and corruption of the people who have caused it to happen.

That's true Alexa

And for those (including half the Tory Party) saying the oven ready rhetoric was only about the WA here's Johnson being quizzed about a trade deal.

twitter.com/ChrisMousse3/status/1337531751380496405?s=20

Interesting as you can see how he tries to choose his words carefully. So the kindest interpretation would be that he was just out of his depth and didn't understand what needed to be done. Alternatively it's more evidence that No Deal was always the plan