Rather pay than give in

biba70
From a young friend today- whose daughter was planning to go and study in Italy with Erasmus and won't be able to

So the Daily Express virtually has us declaring war on France this morning. Which is arguably not unusual for the Daily Express but somewhat more unusual, irresponsible and pathetic for an actual U.K. government.
I’d like to say I don’t think I could be more ashamed of this country than I am at the moment, but I don’t doubt Johnson and the Tories will give me even more reason to be so

I’m not terribly interested in your “young friend” and do not read the Daily Express, but this might reassure her

From the BBC website -regarding Erasmus

A Department for Education spokesperson told Reality Check: "The government remains open to participation in elements of Erasmus+ on a time-limited basis, provided that the terms are in line with UK interests and we can agree a fair and proportionate financial contribution."

UK universities are still eligible to participate in Erasmus programmes and as long as funding is awarded before the end of 2020 students and staff will be able to go ahead with their exchanges even if they take place after the end of the transition period.

It's of interest what memes have taken root in people's minds.

Meme as posted by the original poster:
"Personally I would rather UK left EU without a deal than give up our freedom."

This meme is a famous example of non sequitur : the one does not follow from the other.

Goodness, this thread has moved quickly since I posted, and thanks for the comments.

Perhaps I can get some dispensation to stay in France for longer, but I don't actually want to go for longer. Quite apart from Covid, I have very recently lost my husband and want to be near my family. That's really not what it's about. It's the fact that I need to ask permission to do something that I would otherwise have been free to do.

I may still be a European, but I will not be a European citizen anymore, as I was before. And that upsets me greatly, viscerally, that I have been stripped of that citizenship, dispossessed of something precious to me. And I am someone who remembers the pre-EU days, blue passports etc, yet I feel so deeply about this. So imagine how our children must feel, who were born as citizens of the EU and it has just been snatched away, even though the majority of young people wanted to remain.

We have let the younger generation down in this, as in so many other ways, especially with regard to education. So many take out vast loans at exploitative interest rates, in order to obtain a degree - often with poor quality teaching - and limited job prospects. And who will be paying for Covid in the long run? Not the people on this site, but the young people who can't get jobs, afford houses, pay for eand now have to lose their European citizenship, on top of everything else.

But it is not just an emotional reaction. Truly, logically, I cannot think of one good reason to leave. Economically, we will be worse off - why would we want to trade with Japan and Australia at the expense of our nearest neighbours, even without regard to the carbon footprint.

And, as a former lawyer, I genuinely don't understand this fixation on the European Court - it is simply an extra layer of protection, a last right of appeal, but the amount of cases that actually go there is absolutely minuscule. And this from a PM who tried to prorogue parliament and was outraged when the Supreme Court held that this was unlawful - presumably the government could have appealed to the European Court. you couldn't make it up really, a complete and utter farce.

This is not about our freedom, it’s about what we can send to the EU.
Or are you saying we should have the freedom to send whatever we want

That's true Alexa

And for those (including half the Tory Party) saying the oven ready rhetoric was only about the WA here's Johnson being quizzed about a trade deal.

twitter.com/ChrisMousse3/status/1337531751380496405?s=20

Interesting as you can see how he tries to choose his words carefully. So the kindest interpretation would be that he was just out of his depth and didn't understand what needed to be done. Alternatively it's more evidence that No Deal was always the plan

The EU values are common to the EU countries in a society in which inclusion, tolerance, justice, solidarity and non-discrimination prevail. These values are an integral part of our European way of life:

Human dignity is inviolable. It must be respected, protected and constitutes the real basis of fundamental rights.

Freedom of movement gives citizens the right to move and reside freely within the Union. Individual freedoms such as respect for private life, freedom of thought, religion, assembly, expression and information are protected by the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

Democracy- The functioning of the EU is founded on representative democracy. Being a European citizen also means enjoying political rights. Every adult EU citizen has the right to stand as a candidate and to vote in elections to the European Parliament. EU citizens have the right to stand as candidate and to vote in their country of residence, or in their country of origin.

Equality is about equal rights for all citizens before the law. The principle of equality between women and men underpins all European policies and is the basis for European integration. It applies in all areas. The principle of equal pay for equal work became part of the Treaty of Rome in 1957. Although inequalities still exist, the EU has made significant progress.

Rule of law The EU is based on the rule of law. Everything the EU does is founded on treaties, voluntarily and democratically agreed by its EU countries. Law and justice are upheld by an independent judiciary. The EU countries gave final jurisdiction to the European Court of Justice which judgements have to be respected by all.

Human rights are protected by the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights. These cover the right to be free from discrimination on the basis of sex, racial or ethnic origin, religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation, the right to the protection of your personal data, and the right to get access to justice.

europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-in-brief_en

This is not just about whether your grandchild can study or work in another EU country or how long you can stay in your second home in France, it is the loss of these values, being part of something greater and better, that causes so much distress, compounded by the deceit, incompetence and corruption of the people who have caused it to happen.

Yes I agree varian. The Human Rights Act was the greatest protection my severely disabled son had when the State sectioned him (he is non-verbal, has severe learning disabilities, and epilepsy). The Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights used his case as an example of what was not acceptable and said it must not happen. That protection is likely to go with the British Bill of Rights.

What on earth are the new British values? Inequality, different rules for those in power, cronyism, corruption and no freedom of movement.

biba70
Once again your wrong in respect of eu nationals not getting any documentation Re leave to remain.
My daughter has done this for her Albanian neighbours.
It did not takes months. The time spent by my daughter covered 2 weeks ( on and ) because she has her own business to run. Otherwise it would have been shorter.
Those are facts
Btw. It might be better for your understanding as to how things are in the uk to stop reading the Express.

MawBe, my friend's daughter is doing GCSE's, and Erasmus normally applies to Second year at Uni. So she would want to go in 4 years' time.

petra- this are the facts from the official Government website

''After you get your decision letter, you can view your pre-settled or settled status online on GOV.UK. If you're from the EU, EEA or Switzerland, you will not get a card showing your pre-settled or settled status - your status is only online.

It is not so easy for someone who has never worked in the UK, arrived fairly late in life and is now widowed and living in her British husband's Council Bungalow with multiple handicaps and health issues. I can assure you, FACT.

We have let the younger generation down in this, as in so many other ways,

PetitFromage, I seem to remember an awful lot of young people who were of voting age didn't attach enough importance to the referendum to bother. Does Glastonbury jog any memories>

Things could have so easily gone the other way if they'd cared a bit more about their own futures instead of leaving it to others then moaning that they have been let down.

Again not true merlotgran

64% of 18-24 year olds voted
65% of 25-39 year olds
66% of 40-54 year olds
74% of 55-64
90% of 65+

So unless you are including 54 year olds in your rant about youngsters moaning it seems you owe them an apology

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

So unless you are including 54 year olds in your rant about youngsters moaning it seems you owe them an apology

It was hardly a rant.

Further details here: www.lse.ac.uk/about-lse/connect/connect-2017/eu-referendum-breaking-indifference

It was unfairly rude about the young, They did turn out.

Interesting figures - now we know to blame that third of younger people for not bothering......they could’ve swung it for Remain!

I think also that for some young voters, the logistics made it quite difficult if they were at university, as they had to ensure that they were on the electoral roll at the place they were living when the referendum took place. This involved in some cases - such as my daughters - taking steps to be included on the roll some time in advance, which required some organisation.

However, of those 18-24 year olds who were able to vote, 73% voted remain, as did 62% of 25-34 year olds. Unfortunately, they were shafted by the over 65s, who voted 60% to leave and the 55-64 year olds, who voted 57% to leave. What an appalling legacy.

Has anyone heard anything about the,£350m a week for the NHS lately? Or is that being used to pay for gunboats instead? Now try to convince me you knew what you were voting for.

Nezumi65

It was unfairly rude about the young, They did turn out.

Obviously not enough of them to make a difference.
I remain very annoyed and disappointed with them.

It's not merlotgran who is ranting as far as I can see.

I have said this before and will repeat:. I firmly blame Cameron for this; in June students are all over the place as most parents will know. They can be in halls, or arranging off campus accommodation to start from September, or with parents, or working and living somewhere temporarily for the summer,possibly abroad. All of this makes registering to vote not as easy as it is for those of us living in one place. Some students, my dd included, were encouraged by their university to make sure they.were registered somewhere, but I still maintain that the result would have been different had Cameron arranged for the vote to be in say November. But, this is all history as I will no doubt be reminded, still unnecessary careless which has brought us to where we are now

Why are you all going on and on about this? It's happened. It's not ideal. It's not what I voted for but it's happened.
It's a matter of making the best of it rather than upsetting yourselves reminding you of it all. It's akin to a sort of psychological self injurious behaviour.

Jane10

Yes. Odd thread really. We were just reminiscing yesterday about the time when you could only take £50 abroad. Anyone else remember that?

in 1970- £50 was 5 weeks salary for me, btw- full time PA/translator, in London.

I hope it is made clear that not ALL over 65s voted to leave the EU That is clear from the balance on Gransnet being in favour of remaining. Those who rant at ALL the age group are ignoring those who have always argued logically and vehemently that it would be better to stay - and produced far more factual and reasoned arguments than the leavers.

But NO Jane, what has happened, is that (sort of) a tiny majority of thos who voted voted to Leave- with the great Deal we were promised.

Even if we accept the Leave vote (fraudulently) happened- it was never ever meant to be like this, turning the UK to the laughing stock and losing totaly respect in the world - and now threatening our nearest partners, who hold the keys to the access to essential imports and exports.

How can anyone make the best of THAT? Many of our top and respectable Tories are now distancing themselves from this shameful debâcle.

But, this is all history as I will no doubt be reminded

I won't remind you! but it has been thrashed out on GN many times and it's academic now.

Unless we have a sudden volte face.

watch the Press from the EU and beyond, and listen to their TV channels- and see what the reactions are arround the world. It is NOT a good look, and no wonder. The damage will last for a VERY very long time ... and the consequences will be dire.