can we discuss feminism please

Galaxy

Anyone had a look at stonewall Twitter lately and seen the gay men and women absolutely distraught and angry at what is happening, at the homophobia intrinsic in ignoring sex. Or are all those people also part of the right wing conspiracy.

No, I don't bother much with Twitter, but I know how strongly a lot of gay people feel about it all, particularly lesbians, for obvious reasons. I don't know what Stonewall is thinking. After all those years of flying the flag for gay rights they are alienating their core supporters and becoming a radical trans rights group.

Re the 'right wing conspiracy', trisher, I do wish you wouldn't patronise us on here. Of course we are aware that there are those who would deny trans rights for fundamentalist religious reasons, and of course we also know that there are right wing groups who are very sexist and misogynous (why would you think we wouldn't be?); but that does not mean that everyone arguing against self-id belongs to either or both of those groups.

There are right wing groups and fundamentalist religious groups who promote transgender because they are homophobic. Iran for example, where it's illegal to be homosexual, men are executed and women flogged, but you're safe if you have sexual reassignment surgery. Maybe that's why they're second in the world for trans surgery numbers. In America there are fundamentalist Churches where nobody has a homosexual child, but several have transgender children. This backward step is just another conversion therapy, but with potentially tragic results. LGB people must feel so let down.

Re the 'right wing conspiracy', trisher, I do wish you wouldn't patronise us on here. Of course we are aware that there are those who would deny trans rights for fundamentalist religious reasons, and of course we also know that there are right wing groups who are very sexist and misogynous (why would you think we wouldn't be?); but that does not mean that everyone arguing against self-id belongs to either or both of those groups.
Doodledog my post was in direct reply to Galaxy and the statement that right wing Christian groups are not relevant in this country. I simply posted evidence that this isn't true and eplained my fears. I'm sorry if you find this patronising. However I will continue to post any information I think applicable.
Rosie51 Thanks for the post about Iran I've been looking at the history of non-conforming gender people in Islam. Fascinating.

Good point, Rosie. There was an interesting documentary on TV a couple of years ago about transgender boys in Iran (I can't remember the name they were given) who were basically rent boys for gay men, but all of it, which would have been mercilessly punished if it went under the name of homosexuality, was 'ok' because the boys had transitioned. It was very sad, and goodness knows what will happen to them when they are no longer young and pretty.

Of course you will post what you like, trisher, but Galaxy never implied that she lived in some sort of naive bubble. She just said that most of the women expressing concern about self-id and about places like the Tavistock were old-school lefties.

I'm sure that Galaxy can speak for herself, however, so will leave it there.

Did you bother to read the article about the involvement of right wing Christian groups world-wide Doodledog or was the agenda it disclosed too disturbing for you? It might be nice if you commented on the actual situation and stopped blaming me for drawing attention to it. Does it not bother you that an American right wing Christian group whch opposes abortion, same sex marriage and is virulently ani-gay spent £1.5 million in Europe in 2019. Shouldn't feminists be worried about this?
Trans issues are just the tip of the iceberg.

There’s a huge difference between acknowledging that some adolescents with identity issues need expert psychotherapeutic, medical and psychological support and being a fundamentalist from any faith or none, who simply rejects the idea that being gay/lesbian means you need to be thrown off a building or faced with ‘conversion’ therapy.,

I am aware of those groups, trisher, and yes, I find them disturbing, but just as the cost of a medical examination is not an abuse of human rights, the groups' existence, worrying though it is, is not reason enough to allow intact men to declare themselves female and insist on joining teenage girls in a US army shower, or to take a place in a women's sport team or a female-only shortlist.

Those are the areas that concern me about this topic, and whereas other wrongs clearly do exist in the world, no amount of goading about my not bothering to address them because I am too much of a delicate little flower will divert me from saying so.

Also, I do not disagree that the groups you mention are A Bad Thing, for what it's worth, and nor, I assume, do others on this thread, but if you want to debate them, why not start a separate thread and let us discuss them on that? I think that there is an argument for thinking that these groups encourage the 'women are just non-men' way of thinking because of their fundamental hatred of women, but that is another discussion.

Doodleedog sorry I thought this thread was about feminism, I didn't realise feminism was now limited to trans issues unless it had a seperate thread.

No, of course it isn't, but so often the issues raised by posters are ignored, and the topic is sidetracked by 'it costs £140 for a medical certificate', or 'there are right wing groups in the US who have nefarious agendas', which are at best tangental.

Has this thread changed to gender issues now then ?Pity because feminism in its broad sense is a topic which should be discussed and debated and not side lined.

Of course feminism is wider than gender issues, but the issue of self ID is immediate, and if it passes into law the loss of our sex based rights will take years, maybe decades to be restored. The patriarchy have no problem with transmen taking womens places, be that in the boardroom or anywhere else. What issues would you like to discuss nanna8?

General issues of how females are treated today. Have we travelled that far in the last 50 years or are we still basically in the same position? Is there still an unspoken current there that men are superior? How are we raising our sons ? Are women contributing to some of the stereotypes? I would sooner have a separate thread for transgender issues. I have a friend who changed from a male to a female after marrying and having a family. A lot of issues and maybe deserving of a separate thread.

And I've just seen I referred to transmen, when I clearly was thinking of transwomen. Just goes to show how confused the whole issue is. Many people think transwomen refer to women who want to transgender, not men wishing to identify into the opposite sex.

nanna8 I note your use of female. I really wish we could address the issues facing females but for some reason any demarkation on the basis of biological sex, which is immutable, gets labelled transphobic and is quickly shut down. Your friend who transgendered after marrying and fathering a family would not have been socialised as a female, or affected by misogyny growing up or in early adulthood, yet we are supposed to accept them as a fully fledged woman, that's my problem.
The general issues can wait, if we lose our sex based rights, the ones women fought for for decades, we might as well throw in the towel and go back to being barefoot and pregnant and chained to the kitchen sink!

My friend knew she was in the wrong body from about the age of 3 but lived a life of denial. She became a truck driver and a car mechanic. She changed around 12 years ago and her children won’t have anything to do with her . She is the most talented person I know and before I got to know her I felt the same as you Rosie. She has been through hell but come through with the help of a woman she lives with now. She still won’t use public transport because of the nasty cruel comments ( she is very tall)

Manna, I don’t think anyone on this thread would have a problem with your friend. I know that I would be 100% supportive of her choices.

The problem is absolutely not that people are transphobic. It is that the way the legislation is moving, all any man has to do is say that he is a woman to be given access to areas which are traditionally women-only. So changing rooms, female rape suites, women’s rugby teams and the like.

Not only that, but he can ride a coach and horses through things that have been expressly set up to address lack of female representation, such as political women-only shortlists. All he has to do, even if he has a beard, a hairy chest and a penis is to say that he is a woman to qualify.

This might sound niche, but it means that the Equality legislation that took so long to get on the statutes is useless. ‘What do you mean, we have no women in management? Richard and Brian sometimes define as women, so our board is 30% female and our targets are met. Trevor is our new HR lady, whose role it is to check that the shop floor isn’t too male- dominated, and she’s doing sterling work. Three new female mechanics started last month, Wayne, Steven and Dave. We have some of those Cis-women across in the admin block, too. They are so good at things that require routine and dexterity. Brian identifies as lesbian, and has a lovely little wife, Susan. She and Louise keep the wheels of the office oiled with very little supervision, and Trevor’s fiancé Louise supervises the cleaners. As you can see, we tick all the boxes.’

Sorry Nanna - autocorrect!

You are so right Rosie about the transgender issue being urgent. Worldwide politicians have fallen under the spell of transgender ideology, America and Scotland being the latest. There is so much noise about this subject that its hard to believe that less than 1% of the population see themselves as transgender. Yet over 50% of the population (women) are expected to move over and educate themselves.

I am concerned that many political parties are not only supportive of trans rights but actively seek out transwomen for official positions. So much for women shortlists and encouraging women to come forward. Where there's a bandwagon, there will always be a bunch of politicians fighting for a spot on it.

In the past few elections, both local and national, I wrote to all the prospective councillors and MP's in my area asking them what they and their party planned to do about the protection of women and children. Most declined to answer fully, merely stating that transwomen were women. Some ignored my request. Only one, the local MP responded with a cautious admission that they too had some concerns. That MP was replaced in the last election and the new one who responded with a reminder that transwomen are women.

I have come to realise that even some branches of feminism have welcomed men into the groups and support the trans movement. I fear we are loosing the plot. I fear that at some point in the future we will look back and say, why did we allow this to go so far.

Ha ha. Good post Doogledog. That's the point exactly

Good posts Doodle and petunia.
There have been a number of requests for gransnet to have a feminism board. Have any of those discussions not been dominated by the trans issues?

The thing is petunia, not even all feminists support your view. I acknowledge and understand we all have a right to our own opinion, but this isn't the be all and end all, for all feminists.

I support trans rights. I don't see m2f people as the threat some do. And the vast majority of trans people I have met have been F2M anyway.

I understand that not everyone shares my view but it would be nice for political parties to even acknowledge that there could be some issues and that maybe instead of rushing headlong into a brave new world, we need to consult outside the pressure groups.

Ok so here's a question for you There are 2 people up for a post in an organisation which will significantly impact on the lives of a lot of people. One is a transwoman with left wing views who is agnostic, belongs to some charitable organisations and has a record of activism in human rights, the other is a natal woman from a right wing Christian group which opposes abortion and same sex marriage. Who would you rather got the job? Because I know who I'd go with.
And before anyone starts on about it could be 2 women. This isn't a likely or possible case it's just an example that it isn't necessarily a good thing that women are appointed to high office because some women do not have the best interests of most people at heart, and although the same may be said of some transwomen they have for the most part endured a long journey which has taught them about inequality and intolerance. They are therefore more likely to oppose patriarchal views and work for equality.

If the job has not been earmarked for a woman, then I think it should go to the better candidate.

If there is a female-only shortlist, which happens rarely, but when it does is because women are massively under-represented, then I think it should go to a woman.

If the woman you describe is not suitable for the role, this will become apparent at interview, in which case the organisation should readvertise until they find the right woman for the job.

The transwoman can apply for the vast majority of roles which are not reserved for females only. There will be a reason why the one you describe has insisted on female applicants, and this should be respected.

That's not the point Doodledog as you probably well know. The point is that feminist aims are not necessarily supported or enforced by women. Some women are reactionary. Transwomen having experienced intolerance and inequality are more likely to support minorities and oppose the patriachy which is I would have thought the real object of feminism.
What you could in fact be doing by insisting women only lists must be limited to people who are born female is sacrificing the long term ojectives of feminism for short term advancement.